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  • What should a DEIB program include?

    What should a DEIB program include?

    Navigating the complex Diversity, Equity, Inclusion, and Belonging (DEIB) landscape is like journeying through Earth’s natural wonders. As we embark on Episode 3 of our podcast series, picture this: your organization is a vast ecosystem, from deep oceans to towering peaks, awaiting exploration. Ready to embark on this grand expedition? Lace-up your boots, grab your compass, and let’s begin!

    1. Assessment and Data Collection:

    • Baseline Assessment: Begin by evaluating your current DEIB situation. Research from McKinsey has underscored the potential financial benefits for companies with higher racial and ethnic diversity.
    • Regularly Updated Metrics: Continuous measurement and tracking of representation and equity are essential for real-time decision-making.

    2. Leadership and Governance:

    • Leadership Buy-in: The commitment of top leaders is pivotal. Boston Consulting Group’s research has highlighted the positive impact of management’s commitment to diversity on business outcomes.
    • DEIB Council: Numerous studies suggest that diverse boards positively impact financial performance and decision-making.

    3. Training and Development:

    • Awareness Training: It’s important to educate teams on DEIB principles. Harvard Business Review has discussed the potential benefits of unbiased decision-making training.
    • Leadership Training: Deloitte’s research emphasizes the role of inclusive leadership in enhancing organizational innovation.

    4. Recruitment, Hiring, and Retention:

    • Diverse Talent Pipelines: Gartner has noted the efficiencies associated with diverse hiring teams.
    • Mentorship and Sponsorship: The Wharton School’s research highlights the advantages of mentorship for both mentors and mentees.

    5. Inclusive Policies and Practices:

    • Employee Resource Groups (ERGs): Catalyst’s findings underscore the potential career progression benefits for employees involved in ERGs.
    • Inclusive Benefits: The Center for American Progress has explored the potential cost implications of employee turnover and how inclusive benefits might mitigate them.

    6. Communication:

    • Open Dialogue: As explored by Quantum Workplace, effective communication is key to retention.
    • Transparency: Emphasizing transparency can foster trust, boost employee morale, and enhance investor confidence, as various studies suggest.

    7. External Relations:

    • Supplier Diversity: There are multifaceted advantages to supplier diversity, ranging from innovation to broader market access.
    • Community Engagement: Corporate Responsibility Magazine’s studies emphasize the weight potential employees give to a company’s societal commitments.

    8. Culture and Belonging:

    • Celebrate Diversity: Glassdoor’s research highlights how job seekers value workplace diversity during their search process.
    • Promote Allyship: BetterUp has delved into the impact of an ally culture on employee engagement.

    9. Review and Adapt:

    10. Resources and Budget:

    The journey to robust DEIB isn’t just morally right; it’s also a smart business move. With compelling statistics backing every phase, it’s evident that fostering a diverse, inclusive environment yields tangible benefits. Are you ready to dig and start your DEIB journey? Take the DEI Gap Assessment. You will get a customized report highlighting where you might start with your ecosystem.

  • How do we move the needle on DEI?

    How do we move the needle on DEI?

    Episode 2 of Equity Evolution:

    Transcript

    All right, hello everyone. Welcome back for another episode. In this episode, we’re going to be discussing the question of how do you make progress on DEIB. I’m excited about this one because I think a lot of people have this question. I’ll probably say that about every single question, so let’s just preface that by saying I’m going to say that a lot. I’m excited about these questions in general. Yes, I totally agree.

    So, one of the ways we’re going to start this conversation is by breaking down the meanings of each letter in DEIB. Let’s start with diversity. What does diversity mean to you?

    For me, diversity means having a variety of genders, races, socioeconomic backgrounds, educational backgrounds, and world experiences. It’s important to note that diversity goes beyond just having a diverse leadership team based on Ivy League education and white men. That misses the point entirely.

    I also believe that diversity means ensuring that everyone looks different and comes from different backgrounds. It’s important to understand that even people from the same race or ethnic background may not have the same experiences. This aspect of diversity is significant to me. It’s about how everyone interacts with each other and making sure it’s not all the same. Diversity is not uniformity.

    I think it’s important to highlight that diversity also means recognizing that individuals from the same racial or ethnic background are not a monolith. They don’t represent the entire group. Just like a single woman doesn’t represent all women, a single trans or non-binary person doesn’t represent the entire LGBTQIA community. It’s essential to acknowledge the intersectionality of diversity.

    Another aspect to consider is the location of your business. Are you meeting the diversity ratios for the community you’re in or serving? Does your company reflect the diversity of your community? This can be a good measure of how successfully you are embracing diversity within your company.

    I also want to address the problematic areas in the United States that are highly homogeneous. I live in one of them, Denver, which is not racially diverse. In such places, it takes more effort and creativity to ensure diversity. It’s not enough to say, “Well, my company is diverse because we have men and women.” It goes beyond that. We live in a global society, and that needs to be recognized.

    I live in San Diego, where there are a ton of different ethnic backgrounds and races. However, even here, you can see communities starting to group themselves in one space, which limits diversity.

    know, although there are lots of diverse groups and communities out here, you see that some of those groups just start to stick together and they want to only be around one group. So, with being diverse, it’s important to get in there and try to mix that up. Let’s break this up. Let’s go talk to this person to see how their day is or have a conversation with all these different groups to get knowledge and have these different conversations. This way, you can gain cultural competence and also start meeting new people. It’s better to have diverse opinions than having just one specific thought on everything and the outlook on things. So, those thought echo chambers are a major pitfall in companies and we’ll definitely get into those and the harms of not investing in diversity, equity, and inclusion and belonging. Now, let’s move on to defining equity. What does equity mean to you? Equity, to me, is all about being equal in all fronts. I know a lot of companies start by talking about compensation and making sure they have equitable opportunities for employees in leadership roles. But for me, it’s about having a ground level of fairness and ethics for your employees, making sure that is at the forefront of all things. I would expand on that and say that there is a difference between equitable and equal. I actually think that we need to focus more on equity than equality. While equality is important, it doesn’t address the systemic and long-term harm that has been caused. We are in a place where equity is necessary because we’re fixing things. So, I would define equity as ensuring equal access to opportunities, trainings, and equal compensation for all, but also having measures in place to support historically marginalized groups in the way that they need to be supported. Historically, men have been in the workplace for much longer and have been supported, given trainings, mentorship, or approached in a different way. So, just putting a woman or a woman identifying person into that is not equitable. At the end of the day, it’s not equal because they’re not starting from the same place. So, what do you need to have in your organization to support people from historically marginalized groups and provide them with equal access? It’s not just about saying, “Everyone gets this,” but also considering if they have the ability to partake in what’s available. Do they have the amount of access to be able to participate? It’s about making sure it’s equal and equitable for everyone. I think the imagery that is really powerful and helpful for people to understand the difference between equality and equity is the infographic that has a group of four humans trying to watch a baseball game over a fence. It’s a privacy fence, and one person is really tall, all the way down to somebody who is much shorter. Equality would be they all get a box, but it’s the exact same height box. So, yes, they all got a box, but we didn’t take into account that somebody was six feet and somebody was five feet. The equality piece would be everybody gets the box they need to see over the fence. I think that’s very helpful, and I also agree that you have to take into account someone’s height. I can’t see the same amount that my husband can see because he’s six feet and I’m only 5’9 and some change. So, I completely agree. It’s a great way to explain the difference between the two. It’s about accessibility too. If a six-foot person has access to see because they have longer legs than I do, it’s not equal. It has to be equal and equitable for everyone. Now, let’s talk about inclusion. How do you define inclusion? Inclusion, to me, speaks about making sure that there are no things that are going to exclude any groups or individuals. This includes policies, benefits, and making sure everybody’s opinion is valued. For instance, when having a conversation, it’s about inviting people in rather than calling them out. Let’s all talk about it together. Inclusion also means having diverse groups mix and have conversations, fostering cultural competency. It’s about making it a collective rather than separate groups of like-minded opinions. I appreciate that you’re talking about calling people in and creating opportunities for conversations. For me, the difference between inclusion and belonging is that inclusion is more event or system-oriented. It’s about creating frameworks that invite people to participate and share ideas. It’s about increasing cultural competency through events like speakers for Black History Month, Hispanic Heritage Month, and Women’s Month. Belonging, on the other hand, is about creating a safe space where people can be their authentic selves. It’s about feeling comfortable with the people you’re working with and using inclusive language. It ties into the company culture and how the culture of the company already is. If the company already exudes a culture of making sure people feel included, it means they check those things as a problem already. So, we don’t tolerate these things and have systems in place. Belonging is about creating a sense of home and a safe space where people don’t have to hide parts of themselves. It’s about being able to bring your whole self to work and not having to overthink or hide who you are. It’s about being able to talk about personal life without fear of judgment or ostracization. It’s about being able to be authentic and not having to leave part of yourself outside of the workplace. I think that’s a great way to define belonging. It’s about feeling safe and comfortable, being able to be yourself without hesitation. It’s about creating a culture that supports and values everyone equally.

    okay, but it’s just that “simple” is like something small, and bringing your authentic self to work to feel comfortable. For a long time, I wouldn’t even put color on my nails because I didn’t feel comfortable, and I really didn’t want to have that conversation with anyone about why I decided to get pink designs on my nails or why I decided to do Christmas nails or something like that. It took me a long time to get to a space where I can feel comfortable to just be like, you know what, it’s me, I’m living my life, I don’t care what anybody else has to say or think. Yeah, I love that you found that place and to do that, and yeah, being able to be that representation because representation is important, and sometimes it does take that first person to do the thing to push back against the normalization and make people go, “Oh, well, wait, why do I think that? Maybe I don’t need to.” And that’s where the changes happen. So, being able to make those choices and it being a safe enough environment to even have the choice in the first place, if you want to. Yeah, I agree. So let’s talk about some action steps in how to move the needle on diversity. How do we make changes in this? If we go back to diversity, what are a couple of things that you think would be actions that people could do within companies or companies could make changes to move diversity forward and get more diversity within the company? Yes, obviously the first one that companies always talk about is recruitment. Recruitment is important to make sure to have a diverse recruiting strategy, and that starts with whoever is doing your recruiting and wherever you’re looking for your folks that are going to join the company or team. It also goes with your programming. Whichever type of programming you’re looking to do, whether that is Employee Engagement programs or employee network groups, you have to make sure you’re including everyone in that group to make it a diverse space. If you’re recruiting diversely, then you can have diverse employee resource groups as well. Lastly, for me, it’s making sure that you have some sort of data that you’re collecting to be able to see how you’re doing and doing the research out there to see what’s around you and how they’re doing. Because one thing about diversity, equity, and inclusion or diversity, equity, and belonging is that there’s no one answer. You should definitely use what other companies are doing as a guideline or partner with these other businesses to see how you can better do it within your organization. Yeah, we are creating these things in a way that works for right now, and right now is always changing, so your approach can and should be changing too. I agree with everything that you just said. I think the only thing that I would want to add there is the hiring process as a whole. Do you have an equitable hiring process? What does your job description look like? Is it an inclusive job description that is gender-neutral? In a lot of companies, that is first and foremost the place to start because if you have a masculine-coded job description, women are less likely to apply for it, and people that are nonbinary or transgender are less likely to apply for it. So you’re cutting out diversity options just by how you’re presenting your job in the first place. So, what does your whole process look like, and have you revamped it in a way to make it accessible, inclusive, and equitable? That would be a big action. What is your hiring process from recruitment, from where you go find the people, all the way through to orientation? What does that whole process look like? Yep, 100% agree. So what about Equity? What are some actions people can take there? Equity, I would also go on and say that making sure that your company culture has an equity standpoint. That’s from every aspect, just talking about fair compensation, and that means everybody being fairly compensated. Also, making sure there is some sort of competency with different cultures and backgrounds, and making sure things are equal as well. So, I think for me, those are a couple of things that I would think of. Yeah, for sure. The compensation, I think, is a great place for companies to start. Doing a pay audit and is it equitable across your company is a great place to start. Also, looking at what the representation within the company looks like. Do you have equity already in different departments, in access to training, in access to benefits? Who’s participating in them? Looking at the data and the metrics for what is already available within the company and who’s partaking and who is it serving. So, the first action step that I would encourage is an audit in general. Doing a company-wide audit to know what does equity look like in our company? Does it exist at all? And where are our gaps in that? We have an assessment that people can take. It’s a pretty short overview to kind of highlight where your DEI gaps may be. But doing an in-depth audit of the company will get you even more answers for that. What about inclusion? What are some actions that companies can take for inclusion? Inclusion, for me, the one that I will mention is those inclusive programming software things that I’ve always come across is the social aspect of a company. I think that sometimes companies miss the mark by having all of these programs, but they should also create some sort of social engagement for their employees to make them feel included. This could be a town hall, a team meeting to discuss diversity initiatives, an employee social, or social events for programs that happen every year (such as Pride, International Women’s Day, Women’s History Month, Hispanic Heritage Month). These engagements will create inclusivity across the organization. I agree with all of these options and don’t have anything to add. Some more advanced steps could include listening circles and safe space dialogues, but those are not necessary when just starting out. To get started, you can create events that highlight cultural celebrations by using a cultural calendar to plan ahead. For example, if it’s May 30th and Pride month is in two days, you can plan ahead and choose events that align with your company’s mission, vision, and values. You don’t have to do all the events, just choose a few to get started. Belonging is another important aspect. Create a safe space for your employees by having trainings on inclusive language, conversations about microaggressions, and ensuring that new hires feel welcome from the moment they join the company. Assess the level of psychological safety within the organization and assume that there is room for improvement. If you don’t know what psychological safety is or how to create it, I recommend reading “The Fearless Organization” by Dr. Amy Edmondson. Accountability is crucial. Make sure your Chief Diversity Officer and Diversity Director are representative of your diversity and inclusion goals. Align your goals with the organization’s objectives and regularly evaluate and update them. Recognize and appreciate employees who contribute to diversity, equity, and inclusion efforts, even if it’s beyond their job responsibilities. Feedback mechanisms are essential for continuous improvement. Use surveys, conversations, and engagement metrics to gather feedback and make informed decisions. Create a psychologically safe environment where employees feel comfortable sharing their thoughts and concerns. Remember, complaints can provide valuable information for improvement, so approach them as feedback and listen to what employees are saying. Good leaders know how to decipher information from complaints and use it to drive positive change. There is much more to discuss on these topics, so check out our newsletter and blog for more information. If you want to identify your diversity, equity, and inclusion gaps, visit our website and take the Gap assessment. Thank you for joining us, and we hope to see you next week for our next question. Have a good day!

  • Why Does DEIB Fail?

    Why Does DEIB Fail?

    Ready to start evolving your DEI Efforts? Take the DEI Gap Assessment and get started on your journey of DEI and business success.

    Full Transcript:

    Alexandria: Alright, welcome in today. We are talking about why diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI) programs fail so often. I have Dana here with me, and I’m really excited to dig into this because I think this is a topic that’s top of mind for a lot of people. There are many who wonder, “Why bother with DEI? It never seems to make any real changes, it’s expensive, it’s hard, it’s too much. We have to focus on the business.” So, really digging into why these programs fail and how you can make them succeed. Dana, what are your thoughts on why these programs fail so often?

    Dana: For me, some of the top reasons why DEI programs fail, and I’m going to speak from the perspective of a large corporate setting, have to do with leadership and how they engage and support these programs. For example, I’ve worked for a company where the Chief Diversity Officer was never really engaged with their DEI teams or present. This person had been with the company for years but wasn’t involved in any of the DEI programs the team was putting together. So, for me, it’s crucial that senior leadership engages with the teams doing this work to ensure the company meets its DEI goals.

    Alexandria: I can relate to that, even from a non-profit perspective. Leadership has to be supportive and understand the DEI strategy’s direction. Leadership buy-in and engagement are significant factors contributing to program success.

    Dana: Exactly. Engaging with the teams doing this work is essential, not just for DEI programs but also for other initiatives like recruiting. It’s important for senior leadership to be a part of and engage with the people doing the work within their teams.

    Alexandria: I absolutely agree. That leadership buy-in issue can also lead to siloing. When leadership is not fully engaged, you end up with silos where everyone focuses on their roles, and DEI gets sidelined. It’s crucial for DEI to be integrated into the overall business strategy from the beginning.

    Dana: Yes, it all starts with that initial decision to build a DEI program within the organization. You must carry it through every aspect of your operations. It’s not something you sprinkle in here and there. It’s a commitment that encompasses everything, from events like Pride and Women’s History Month to Hispanic Heritage Month. It’s not a one-time thing; it’s ongoing.

    Alexandria: Absolutely. I think one common issue is that companies start with diversity and inclusion, thinking it’s easier, but they need to focus on equity and belonging first. Diversity and inclusion should be the metrics that show the success of equity and belonging. If you achieve equity and belonging, diversity will naturally follow.

    Dana: That’s a great point. You’re right; it’s not just about having events or initiatives. It’s about making sure that equity and belonging are part of your company’s mission and values. Aligning these with your strategic plan is crucial for success.

    Alexandria: I couldn’t agree more. It’s not just about events but embedding these principles in every aspect of the organization. Now, when it comes to actions, if a company lacks leadership engagement, what can they do?

    Dana: One key action is empowering leadership champions who are already committed to this work. Involve employees from the ground up and create communication platforms for feedback and idea sharing. Also, ensure the person owning this effort can handle the workload and has the necessary resources and support.

    Alexandria: Great suggestions. For smaller organizations, forming employee resource groups (ERGs) can be challenging. What advice do you have for them?

    Dana: In smaller organizations, start by selecting one representative from each department to bridge communication. It’s vital to have leadership support, as small organizations need all the help they can get to succeed in DEI efforts.

    Alexandria: Excellent insights. Finally, DEI should be an ongoing journey, not a one-time destination. Reacting to crises is not sustainable. Companies need to develop a robust DEI strategy, involve employees, educate, train, and collect feedback continuously.

    Dana: I couldn’t agree more. Companies need systems in place to handle issues when they arise and ensure they don’t happen again. The work is ongoing.

    Alexandria: Thank you for sharing your expertise, Dana. These insights will undoubtedly help organizations in their DEI efforts.

    Dana: You’re welcome. Let’s continue working towards making DEI a fundamental part of every organization.

  • Why Does DEIB Fail?

    Why Does DEIB Fail?

    Diversity, Equity, Inclusion, and Belonging (DEIB) have become buzzwords in the corporate world, with many companies striving to demonstrate their commitment to fostering inclusive workplaces. However, despite these efforts, only some DEIB programs achieve their goals. A recent study by McKinsey found that only 29% of DEIB programs have significantly impacted their organizations. Together, we will investigate common reasons behind these failures, highlighting companies’ challenges in creating effective DEIB initiatives and what actions can be taken to increase success.

    Problem: Focusing on Diversity and Inclusion over Equity and Belonging

    While Diversity and Inclusion initiatives may be action-based and devoid of systemic shifts, the true foundation of DEIB lies in Equity and Belonging. If organizations successfully imbue Equity and Belonging, Diversity and Inclusion naturally follow suit.

    Solutions:

    • Cultivate Psychological Safety
    • Review and Revise Policies with an Equity Lens
    • Encourage Employee Resource Groups (ERGs)

    Problem: Reactivity and Fear-Based Approaches

    Many DEIB programs are hastily constructed as reactive measures to public criticism, lawsuits, or PR crises, rather than proactively designed with genuine intent.

    Solutions:

    • Develop a proactive DEIB Strategy
    • Foster Employee Involvement
    • Invest in Education and Training
    • Implement Feedback Mechanisms

    Problem: Unaddressed Biases of Program Creators

    Even well-intentioned professionals shaping DEIB strategies can inadvertently be influenced by their implicit biases.

    Solutions:

    • Hold Comprehensive Bias Training
    • Launch Awareness Workshops
    • Embrace Scenario-Based Training
    • Prioritize Continuous Learning
    • Seek Diverse Collaboration and Oversight
    • Emphasize Multiple Perspectives
    • Conduct External Audits
    • Use Data-Informed Decision Making
    • Perform Baseline Assessments
    • Establish Objective Metrics
    • Schedule Regular Review and Iteration

    Problem: Lack of Diversity in Leadership

    According to McKinsey & Company, diverse leadership teams significantly outperform their counterparts. Still, profitability alone doesn’t signify the absence of DEIB issues.

    Solutions:

    • Commit to Succession Planning and Mentorship
    • Build a Diverse Talent Pipeline
    • Promote Reverse Mentoring
    • Ensure Bias-Free Recruitment and Promotion through Structured Interviews and Diverse Hiring Panels
    • Train Leaders in Diversity and Inclusive Decision-Making

    Problem: Dominance of “Command & Control” Leadership

    In the context of DEIB, the traditional “Command and control” leadership approach can be counterproductive.

    Solutions:

    • Adopt a Human-Centered Leadership Approach
    • Empower employees and genuinely listen to their feedback
    • Prioritize team growth and development
    • Incorporate DEIB into Organizational Values
    • Communicate DEIB consistently
    • Promote Grassroots DEIB Initiatives

    Problem: Limitations of Diversity Training

    DEIB programs need more than one-off, lecture-based diversity training sessions.

    Solutions:

    • Implement Continuous Learning Modules
    • Provide Practical Tools and Resources
    • Encourage Peer-to-Peer Learning

    Problem: Telling What to Think vs Sharing How to Think

    Traditional diversity training often imposes set beliefs on employees, potentially sidelining their individual experiences and perspectives.

    Solutions:

    • Cognitive Skill Development: Offer Critical Thinking Workshops and Problem-Solving Exercises.
    • Empathy & Active Listening: Introduce Listening Circles and provide Active Listening Training.
    • Foster Open Dialogue: Create Safe Space Forums for open DEIB discussions and invite Guest Speakers and Panels for diversified insights.

    Problem: Lack of Leadership and Employee Engagement

    For a DEIB program to be effective, engagement from leadership and the broader employee base is paramount.

    Solutions:

    • Empower Leadership Champions
    • Involve Employees from the Get-Go
    • Establish Robust Communication Platforms

    Problem: Seeing DEIB as an Individual Responsibility instead of an Ecosystem

    The success of DEIB initiatives requires they be integrated into a company’s broader strategy.

    Solutions:

    • Assess DEIB Gaps in your organization here
    • Embed DEIB in Organizational Strategy
    • Foster Cross-Functional Collaboration
    • Engage Every Layer of the Organization

    For a comprehensive look at your organization’s DEIB framework, assess your current DEIB gaps. The assessment can be found here. Embracing these proactive solutions can make your DEIB programs more robust, effective, and meaningful.

    Chat with us on LinkedIn about implementing solutions and what steps to take after you receive your Gap Assessment.

  • The Equity Evolution

    The Equity Evolution
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    When it comes to business, the status quo is in a constant state of disruption. The workforce revolution is changing the way we work, the values that matter in the workplace and without, and the importance of being able to adapt, rapidly and sustainably.

    Investing in equity is about more than stock options – equity is a foundational value that sees your employees, your customers, and your community as full human beings, and creates a work environment where everyone can thrive – not in spite of their differences, but because those differences are recognized, valued, and welcomed into every aspect of your company.

    In a world where talent is scarce and competition is fierce, employees are increasingly seeking out companies that go beyond profit margins and embrace a culture of equity and inclusion. The Equity Evolution recognizes that a company’s impact on the world, its commitment to diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI), and its dedication to human well-being are paramount to attracting and retaining top talent, satisfying customers, and even influencing its valuation.

    Driving Sustainable Change

    The Equity Evolution places you in the driver’s seat of disruption, providing you with the tools and knowledge you need to thrive in the future of work. It empowers you to create a company where employees not only survive but truly thrive. Why is this transformation so essential? Because holding onto outdated practices and resisting change is a surefire way to invite dissatisfaction, stagnation, and, ultimately, redundancy.

    Join the Equity Evolution: listen to our first episode (Why DEIB programs fail) wherever you get your podcasts. Join the discussion on LinkedIn, Instagram, and TikTok, and get exclusive insights, tips, and access to our digital downloads and programs by joining our email list.

    Begin a transformative journey that aligns with the changing landscape of business. It’s about fostering a culture where diversity, equity, and inclusion are not just buzzwords but ingrained values. By embracing this evolution, your company can position itself as a leader in the new era of business, driving innovation, and building a workforce that is not just diverse but empowered and engaged.

    Rewrite the rules, redefine success, and create a future where everyone thrives. It’s a journey toward building a workplace that values every individual, promotes inclusion, and drives sustainable growth. The Equity Evolution is here, and the question is: Are you ready to be a part of it?

  • Professionalism: By Whose Definition?

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    Professionalism: By Whose Definition?


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    Transcript

    all right well welcome welcome welcome to another evening session mini Mastermind for our week of the deep work of intersectionality and tonight I am actually super excited because we have our sponsors um hosting this session over the conversation for us and I want to just welcome them as the disruptors I just love the name it resonates with me very well because disruption is part of my nature right um and so I want to welcome Jasleen Sindhu by both last names

    okay actually I’m related to a lot of sandus so my mom’s side are sandus but I’m a sidhu yeah and Alexandra scoby and together they tag team as a disruptors helping to support um Equity work and inclusion work in the tech space which is very unique and an angle that not many people are aware is actually going on so tonight we’re talking about this concept of professionalism and who gets to Define that and what does that mean in terms of the standards and expectations within a workspace that is seeking to be diverse Equitable and inclusive so I’m going to turn it over for them to give a longer intro and then kick us off with our discussion yeah so I can start I’ll give my professional intro first so my educational background is in Psychology so organizational psychology is kind of where I specialize and then I did a postgraduate certificate in human resources and then I went to work in HR for almost a decade at a large oil and gas company shell and yeah and I left the corporate world due to burnout due to really trying to disrupt the systems from the inside always have been a huge advocate for social justice and just being in more of a generalist HR role it really was difficult to balance the competing needs of the business with the needs of the people as a whole and and really through the work that Alexandria and I do at the disruptors I also love that that name is to get people to see that it doesn’t have to be a competing agenda we’re really all about disrupting but in a way where we’re merging the business with people and so that you can have an inclusive business that where where Dei doesn’t sit as a separate check in the box kind of exercise and so yeah that’s my professional uh intro but I’m also a mom of twin boys I live in Canada I grew up on the east coast of Canada and now I’m in western Canada we were just speaking about before this that this is a province where Last of Us was filmed so if you watch that you get kind of get an idea of what the landscape looks like here and so I’ll hand it off to Alexandria to introduce yourself yeah so I am Alexandria co-founder with Jasleen of the disruptors my quote unquote professional I come from a background in counseling specifically addictions counseling with the Department of Corrections I got crispy Critter burnt out on that and I pivoted into Tech and started running Tech departments as an I.T leader and operations manager I was a very jarring move and going from disrupting the system within the Department of Corrections and then moving into Tech and being like great there are solutions to these problems and I’m like oh but you act like computers work for you cool we have other problems and it just being a whole other leadership issue and really wanting to show up in a way that made people feel whole and ability to be authentic other things about me bringing in the not so quote-unquote professional is I am also a queer woman and I was able to have the privilege of being straight presenting and I did it work because it was safer and not talking about it but the pieces of having to hide your identity at work and picking and choosing and what’s safe and what’s not safe and always being on high alert so that you stay in that box of professionalism is exhausting too and wanting to make a space in which people could just be them their full selves which is why we’re here with the disruptors because humans are humans always whether you’re clocked in at work or whether you’re sitting at home and being able to be your full self at all times is important in my opinion absolutely absolutely all right well let’s get into it this is gonna be awesome awesome let me get the presentation up sorry

    um so um how do I get this in presentation mode over there present next to share there we go all right so yes today we’re talking about culture and professionalism by whose definition and so what we want to really cover today is this mental model of how culture shapes professionalism and culture shapes everything and so of course it shapes professionalism and so in order to start deconstructing professionalism in a way that makes sense for us and our businesses we really need to look at it through the lens of professionalism and then ask ourselves the question does this mental model need a refresh so we’ll let all of you kind of decide what you think we’re going to walk through the history of professionalism because we have to know where our current definition came from and what parts of those still make sense and what might have created some unintended consequences and then we’ll look at the impact fact of that model on all of our talent systems so when we’re making hiring decisions firing decisions all these kind of things how does that mental model then impact those systems but also the people inside of the system so then we can start to deconstruct it and rebuild it from an intersectional lens

    yeah so jesleen found some really great quotes So culture is the acquired knowledge people use to interpret experience and generate Behavior and culture being defined as all the ways in which all the ways in which life sorry including like Arts believe institutions all of those things are passed down generationally right like human beings or storytellers we enjoy sharing ourselves and stories and we started writing them down and sharing them but there’s still so much of our culture that is shared non-verbally or just in presentations whether it’s how we dress or the way we do our makeup the way we have our hair all of those things can be very culturally based and so knowing that you know culture is the way of life of an entire Society like I think that that really encaps encapsulates that fully but we want to talk too about like work culture and what does that look like across different Industries because culture from industry to Industry is not the same and neither is professionalism like what’s perceived as professional is completely different sometimes yeah and so I’ve got a bunch of examples of types of cultures so this is not an extensive a exhaustive list but this gives you an idea of the dominant cultures at play and then what the less dominant or minority cultures that exist within North American society and so we have individualistic culture versus Collective culture and so in United States in Canada and most places in North America we come from a very individualist uh individualistic culture I’m in Canada it’s a little bit more Collective than the United States but it’s still very much individualistic versus it’s about how am I going to get ahead versus how are we as a community moving forward there’s also feminine and masculine culture and so you can grow up in this exact same culture as your siblings and still have be more impacted by a gender culture because of the messages we get because because of the way we present in terms of gender so that exists on a binary Spectrum on feminine versus masculine even though in real life our gender is on more of a spectrum or we may not conform to a gender at all and so it’s important to note that the dominant culture is very much masculine or as we like to say the the patriarch um so that’s really coming from more of a um a masculine stereotypically masculine approach and so then I won’t go through the rest of the list but there’s all sorts of other types of cultures in society Elite culture pop culture um third culture is something that I identify with um where you were raised in a culture that is different from your parents culture or the culture of your country of nationality and so it’s kind of like you’re walking a line between the two cultures and sometimes you know that can kind of spark a little bit of an identity crisis of I’m not Indian enough or I’m not Canadian enough and so where do I fit in what is the mental model what is the model that I’m following yeah and so um this heteronormative versus queer culture Black Culture indigenous culture and the list goes on but from a as a society in North America and in many places in the world white supremacy culture still Reigns even in countries that are primarily not made up of white people they’re still colorism and white supremacy that exists

    so what is a typical corporate culture it’s shaped by the dominant group so that is the one that has the most presentation and representation within a grouping so let’s take I originally came out of the counseling world that is a heavily woman dominated industry and so the dominant culture there may be white women depending on what part of the country you live in it may be predominantly women of color if you live maybe on the East Coast or in the South but if you move into Tech it is predominantly white men that are the Dominic culture right so numbers based who makes up the largest group that’s representing a hierarchical command and control behaviors versus those collaborative behaviors that jazlene was just talking about the meritocracy people being rewarded for their Merit or are they I have spicy opinions about meritocracy uh diversity equity and inclusion valued on paper but also then being treated as a nice to have the budget gets cut who’s getting laid off those types of things show up there high Professional Standards looking to governing bodies and to Market society and informing their right and like who’s making those rules where are those rules coming from did everybody agree to them Collective or were they pushed down right command and control and then Jasleen has a huge soapbox I love it I love when she gets up on it of the invisible rules of career advancement rooted in the bias of that dominant group again you can be an all-woman group and be the dominant group and have bias coming into the way you’re behaving towards others so being mindful of who the dominant group is and what’s happening because of it yeah we’re not saying that the dominant group is doing this intentionally either like I want to really stress that because often the invisible rules of career advancement they are invisible even to people in the dominant group but the point is they were created by and for the dominant group and the dominant group has easier access to what these invisible rules are because I get that a lot when I create content um on Tick Tock and whatnot I get men saying well this applies to me too I’m like of course it applies to you too but we’re really looking at it from an accessibility point of view so if this is a tip and again as a first generation um Canadian or American if you’re watching this um you gotta think like if you’re the first person in your family to even go into the corporate world like maybe your ancestors came from you know more of a passive income place or it came from a low income place where they weren’t in a white collar type of role there’s no one there to guide you and so it’s really about the accessibility in terms of what culture were you raised in and so that means it might not have been taught in school what these invisible rules are these are things that are passed down yeah I think the point with the invisible rules that you just said right there is huge they’re invisible because they’re assumed the dominant group knows what they are because they’ve been told because it’s just normalized for them to know these things so they don’t even think about having to share that as a thing that’s true they assume you know and they don’t know that you don’t know yeah yeah and they’ve done studies on that too and often the dominant group doesn’t realize that they’re treating different groups in different ways they’re responding to that lack of accessibility and that lack of knowledge not understanding that it’s an equity issue and so back to how culture oh sorry Dr Aryan I was going to add too that there’s also something with that invisible component and that the quote-unquote dominant culture wants to maintain right that there’s there is a there is a a side of things that we’ve spoken about before that oblivious nature um that they want to maintain because they don’t particularly believe that giving access at that point to that level will keep them safe they feel that if other cultures or other groups gain that level of awareness or access then they become obsolete so there is some intention about keeping it invisible absolutely diversity mindset’s huge yeah it comes from the scarcity mindset it comes from the mindset I’m going to take care of my own first right right I’m going to take care of my and no it’s not racism I have friends who are people of color and who are different genders but I am going to take care of my friends first and so who is in your Social Circle who is in your in your sphere it’s usually people who look like you act like you all of these sort of things and again it’s shaped by the culture it’s shaped first and it goes in the Stream of it starts with your beliefs right so ideas that you hold to be true right and so even building this presentation today this belief that I have to have this slide deck and it needs to be pretty and fancy in order to look professional right and then your values come into play what do you care about who do you care about what problems are you really focused on what is important to you and then that shapes your attitudes how you you treat others how you approach situations and then that leads to your actions your behaviors what are you actually now doing with this mental model and so professionalism kind of fits into that attitude sphere so your beliefs your values that comes to play with now how you’re treating others and how you’re showing up and and then that leads to action and then that obviously shapes the results and the outcomes we see

    and so the definition of professionalism is really it is still subjective but when you think about it when we like this quote by David Meister professionalism is not a label you give yourself it is a description that you hope others will apply to you it’s about Optics it’s about understanding who has power who has privilege how you’re going to impress them and so what ends up happening is you start sacrificing your authenticity when you aren’t like them or you start to believe going back to that that initial step step in the process you start to believe that you don’t belong in those spaces right and so that is and and that’s where sometimes where people sometimes give the feedback that is misplaced because they don’t understand the systems that play against underrepresented groups and so they say we’ll just do it this way but they don’t understand that these the way the approach that they’re asking people to take goes against their core values and who they are and so that takes a toll emotionally psychologically physically even yeah yeah and that’s one of the reasons why I don’t subscribe to this concept of imposter syndrome right and lean more into helping people understand and and reflect on imposer syndrome because you’re navigating a professional quote-unquote environment that has been determined by someone else right the definition of it was determined and established by someone else and you’re doing your best to figure out what that definition is so you can meet some standards so that you then can acquire again this label of professional so counterproductive to yeah it’s almost like in that regard it’s almost transactional yeah something that you sacrifice in buy it yes and that’s exactly what it is it’s not even like it it’s exactly what it is exactly what it is right or sacrifice it’s a transaction of sacrificing who you are your identity yeah yeah yeah yeah so what does professional mean the definition professionalism is a set of behaviors attitudes and values that are expected in a particular profession or workplace involves presenting yourself as polished competent manner adhering to ethical standards and demonstrating respect for colleagues and clients so this definition there leaves a lot of room for ambiguity here too right and you see that show up from industry to Industry which is even more what makes it like mind reading you’re hoping that you throw the dart correctly and that you get it because if you like you said earlier Jasleen if you come from a background your entire life all your family has worked in different blue collar industries and you’ve now moved into white color those rules are not the same professionalism is not the same from those different Industries and how you show up there you may be cast as somebody who has no idea what their doing and harm your career if you try and apply the same rules so some ways that professionalism is enforced or critiqued its appearance right what is the uniform of the industry which is different uh you show up in DC the way you show up in a tech space and you’re going to get laughed out of every single room in DC right because you’re in a hoodie in jeans you are not professional and you’re somebody’s kid right but if you show up in Silicon Valley in a suit and tie you are also going to be laughed out of the room and so what does that mean for the industry that you’re in and should it mean anything I’m gonna go with this should it mean anything because I think the way you dress is whatever but uh Behavior what is the code of conduct and the standards within the profession knowledge skills and experience what’s the standard of Education again that varies by industry how do you showcase your skills also varies by industry for what’s appropriate and then status and membership do you belong to certain credentialing groups or professional associations mm-hmm and you got to think too like which groups are caring more about this than others because I can say as a woman as a person of color like I hear people all the time show up to meetings and say excuse the way I look or you’re you’re doing a presentation and saying oh my hair’s a mess I’m a mess we don’t hear men saying that a lot and we don’t hear and we’ll get into kind of what other unprofessional attire and that kind of mental model might look like but really just thinking about how the group that you come from where you start to care more about these things because you don’t have the privilege not to care about it and so and it’s important to really recognize the history of professionalism where did this concept even start because as a society when we shifted from pre-industrial to Industrial then emerged professional Society because the focus shifted from people having passive income and owning land and then to really you know having managing Capital to then managing human as capital and so this created a need to say okay who is qualified thus the people who we’re going to include in professional Society but also who is unqualified who are the people we are going to exclude from professional Society so this is where it came into play and still today you see this as who are we excluding right right you even see networking groups where there’s like a huge wait list of people trying to get in to these professional executive networking groups and you’ve got to think like how are they making those decisions about who to include right and who to exclude because often like what makes an executive can be very subjective right I could call myself an executive I can call myself a CEO does it make me the same as the CEO in a large like it’s really and and you got to think about how privilege shapes that as well and so really I mean we want to think that it came from a very good place it came from wanting to benefit the public right because the implied intent of these standards are really we’re doing good by Society we’re creating safety we’re creating transparency fairness trust and responsible management of capital these things are true and so I don’t want to paint it all with a bad brush so we do need to hang on to these kind of yes we want to make sure that our doctors studied the right things so that when they’re prescribing us medication and and I mean we can look at that from an intersectional lens as well don’t get me started it’s a whole other soapbox Jasleen there’s another soapbox for another day but really you want to know that the people who are responsible for other humans that they are going to be legit so but again by who standards by who benefits the most from these standards and who might we be excluding

    and so when I Googled professional professional attire these are the first images that came up and so you kind of pay attention here to what what are you noticing what are you noticing about this mental model or this this this depiction of professionalism well of course you know the majority of the illustrations that are being reflected are um white presenting or white passing individuals even though they’re cartoons right um the majority of the folks being featured here it’s that uh you also see the very button-down suit and tie jacket tie for the men and even the I’m going to say woman you’re right and that’s being depicted here is in a pant suit so it’s it’s very interesting to also discuss how um the standard is being modeled off of men and for women to be considered professional some of their attire has to match or complement that it’s really interesting that um and she and she’s also holding a briefcase which is typical of a man’s orientation in a professional space so it’s really interesting here too and the only obvious woman of color you notice her hair right yes and then that’s not in her natural hair representing by presenting blonde hair I didn’t change any of the Colors by the way in any of these images this is exactly how it showed up yeah it’s you know it’s it’s it’s one of the things that um some other colleagues have discussed in different spaces about how not necessarily whitewashing but how we see illustrations that are really trying to Claw at or maintain white status right um I don’t know if you guys watched was it yes the Chris Rock The Selective outrage Chris Rock’s new special I watched a little bit of it and then I I wasn’t loving it I turned it off you should just watch all of it you know yeah but he mentioned how a lot of the advertisements now on TV you are seeing um different diverse relationship status so you’re no longer just seeing white nuclear families you are seeing mixed families interracial couples you know gay gay couples um the spectrum of things and how that is creating disruption for folks who are still subscribed to a very hetero normative white supremacist type of positioning so it’s it’s it’s curious It’s Curious I mean on that front I do think that there is we can hold on to a little bit of progress they are all cartoons right your first Google image was all cartoons and so it’s not all just like blonde hair blue-eyed white man in a business suit so like a little bit of progress I don’t know yeah I would say a little bit like I wouldn’t say that this looks disruptive to me I would say this one on the bottom right but this was the first one sorry I missed that no not at all not at all disruptive go ahead no not disruptive but this one on the bottom right this one came out of canva and I feel like that was the most disruptive one the rest were mostly from Google one thing I noticed from one of these images you see that little verified check mark because this is when you think about how professionalism and verifying who’s qualified who’s not qualified how now it’s translated to social media and you see a lot of people who are buying this check mark or getting it by virtue of how many followers they are how popular they are so now popularity is becoming part of this professionalism how it’s evolved and again is is this really what we want or need in terms of understanding who’s qualified um and the other things that I noticed is when you look at the professional skills a lot of these again are subjective communication style what’s acceptable for different groups what is acceptable for the dominant group isn’t always acceptable for minority groups women aren’t always allowed to be seen as as you know as forthright if you will and they get labeled as you know being bossy or aggressive especially women of color especially black women and so time management again like you know we’ve heard you know I’m on Indian time a lot of time I’m but I’m a very much in time person and so it’s like the concept of time who by whose definition the concept of leadership by whose definition all of these sorts of things like how we present how we show up is super subjective that’s kind of what I noticed did you have anything else Alexandria that you noticed that you wanted to point out no I think we covered them all like your point all of those skills they’re super subjective there’s no definition there and that again industry standards matter and play a part and they’re all unspoken or assumed rules that you know how to behave right you work in a tech company well you should know all the tech algorithm um acronyms oh my God they make up acronyms worse than the government does like they can write a whole book on it yeah so communication there is completely different than communication somewhere else right yeah and when you change Industries oh my gosh trust me I’m relearning acronyms now going from oil gas to Tech it’s like oh my gosh I got to learn these again and they all mean different things right and so then I Googled unprofessional attire and this is what came up interesting so take a minute what I love that we’ve made zero strides when it comes to packing unprofessional attire zero size zero strides oh my gosh one of the things that stood out for me was when you look at the do’s and the don’ts again you have very masculine presenting attire on the left even though it’s a woman and on the right I don’t even know if that is a woman of color I didn’t notice that before but she may be a woman of color she’s wearing colorful clothes and when I think of non-dominant cultures when you think of India when you think of Jamaica when you think of Africa when you think of any really any non-north American country you think of color and so you’ve got to think about also how culture has shaped this Conformity right it’s more about not standing out just fitting in staying in your lane playing and it really comes from because when I when I coach people on the gender differences it that stem from masculine and feminine culture masculine culture is very very much shaped by Sports as well you have your uniform you play for your team you’re loyal to that team until you switch teams and then you’re loyal to that team and and it’s very much just like player player role stay in your lane not very disruptive again and so especially for the tech industry for looking to be disruptive this is a whole mindset that doesn’t just make sense for inclusion purposes but it makes sense in terms of a business and really thinking creative thinking innovatively challenging the system challenging how we’re doing things so you can then disrupt and start looking to the Future instead of the past because those are the businesses that are going to succeed because when you look at this we haven’t made much progress but

    well yeah I wear a hoodie all the time right like but like what what is what size necklace I’m wearing have anything to do with me strategic planning what does the color of my shirt and whether I have a Blazer on or not say about my ability to communicate effectively or plan a project or to achieve an outcome and I’ll play Devil’s Advocate because this is what I hear sometimes is it’s distracting your jewelry is distracting it’s too big it’s too loud I the person who I think is six pay attention

    the first people who think of who’s really disrupting in that space who I look up to is Bozeman St John because she is not afraid to be herself and she’s not afraid to leave environments when like so those of you don’t know who she is she worked for Netflix she worked for Uber I think like she’s she’s been at a lot of big companies I don’t remember if it was Uber or Lyft but yeah yeah so yeah one of those one of those um a lot of big companies where she just had to leave because they weren’t ready for her to show up fully as herself and she’s an amazing marketing mind and and so that’s their loss if they’re not willing to kind of go with go with what her amazing authenticity can do yeah and so and so yeah it is it is hard because if we want to disrupt part of that means we need to have the courage to walk away from spaces and opportunities that aren’t going to allow us to be fully ourselves correct absolutely I would also say to push on that thing of it’s distracting like you get used to things yeah it’s distracting because you haven’t seen it before but the more people do it then it shows up and it’s distracting when you’re coming from your culture right it’s distracting when it’s coming from your culture it is distracting for the other person to have to like overthink right how they’re gonna show up right and then they’re not going to be their best person at work they’re not going to do their best work because they’re constantly having to think of how am I conforming am I too much am I to this where you should just be able to show up fully holy your own self in the workplace and what makes you feel good and confident and like in your own power so that you can show up that way for everybody else because if everybody got to show up in their own power then you have all kinds of innovation and creativity that comes out of that yeah yeah but this is what this is what I’m I’m recognizing more and more that organizations are still very much formulated on compliance yes right they just want you to comply because the folks who are running the organizations of today come from a space where it was very industrial right they were the majority of these folks that are running these these these companies now are older white men who were raised in a time where it was you go to work you sell the car you come back home no questions asked right or you go to work do what you need to do on the factory line punch out and go back home no questions asked and so there the culture Collective culture of organizations now is still very much in that clock in check the box for the task and then leave and what’s the disruption that’s occurring now is that people are saying there’s that but I actually enjoy working I actually enjoy the craft and the talent and the skills that I have and I just want that to be valued in an environment that recognizes me in this way yeah at organizations legit don’t have that capacity because it is not the framing of the current of the majority of the current Founders leaders in the space yeah and again when you look at this historical perspective in the industrial era there was a reason for command and control correct if you come from the military there’s a reason for command and control if you work in an ER there’s a reason for that that kind of autocratic leadership style still works in you know a few spaces right it doesn’t work in Tech it because this is not a manufacturing site so if you want a a business who is just cookie cutter creating things from the past yes keep with that command and control but that resistance to change and that resistance that that it’s really coming from a fear of losing control yes absolutely but what if you were to step into a space to say I already don’t have control you already don’t have control collusion how much control be getting in the way of the real disruption you could be doing with your business yeah and you like you can do the command and control but you will be left behind because you won’t be able to keep up uh you just won’t correct correct even in medicine right and that’s changing there too like sure there is a hierarchy to a point but what they found in medicine is if you create an um an environment of psychological safety in which people can point out mistakes for the doctors it’s actually safer for everybody because less mistakes actually get made unless people die and so command and control I would push does it work like and even in the industries in which it seems to work does it right right yeah yeah and if you want your employees to lead and be creative you need to create leaders not be a manager who is just looking at their every move because then they’re just going to become just like you and it’s going to be it’s just going to go against any sort of diversity equity and inclusion effort right yeah and it asks lead people yeah yeah uh go ahead go ahead Alexandria I forget who’s supposed to we are so off track on who was doing what it’s all good

    so examples of issues under the current definition uh can true meritocracy be achieved um you can answer that question for yourself but I think I think I think we need to stop striving for meritocracy that’s just my opinion but I’ll let you know it’s filled with unchecked bias like it’s that’s all it is is the dominant culture and those who have gotten control and they’re in the leadership positions have now determined what Merit is and have defined what Merit is and so if you don’t show up in their definition of Merit or value then you aren’t seen as valuable as opposed to trying to see the value in what’s there and choosing to find Value because if you’re looking for it you will find it if you are only looking for one small thing oh well they don’t look like a salesperson who’s going to be successful like what does that mean that’s all made up job but that’s where the meritocracy completely falls apart also in my opinion um The Invisible bias invisible rules most accessible to the dominant group because it’s normalized for them it’s so second nature it’s already been taught to them they don’t even remember it being taught is the point right uh how might the culture definition how might the current sorry definition I was like culture that’s not that word this is dyslexia at its finest folks um so it impacts diversity equity and inclusion right so the inclusion and belonging force and code switching you have to learn a whole new language and way of being and speaking and attitude inside that dominant culture the equity unequal access to Professional Resources you maybe have a mentor but do you have a sponsor in that Mentor so sure somebody can be assigned to you but are they really owning what that is for them and the diversity the systemic gatekeeping which you’ve never worked in Tech before you can’t possibly work in a tech company like what yeah and I just wanted to I just wanted to clarify what sponsor means because I get a lot of people who don’t know what that actually means because a mentor someone who shows you the ropes shows you like this is the path I followed but if they’re also a sponsor they’re actually willing to put their name on the on the line to advocate for you and say I trust that this person can do these kind of opportunities and I really need I need you to take a chance on them as well right and so we need more sponsors in underrepresented underrepresented groups women for example are over mentored and under sponsored at the middle level management um at that level and so we really need to think about not just does this person have a mentor but what is the quality of that relationship right are they also getting sponsored are they also getting really specific feedback that isn’t part of this mental model of professionalism that where biases at play right okay 100

    did you want to talk I can do this and also yeah some research that shows why we need to change so the study that came out of the National Women’s Law Center is that women black women are more likely to report being sent home from work due to their hair not being professional than white women are that’s a prime example of white supremacy showing up in professionalism and deeming what appearance is professional or not professional the study out of the center for talent Innovation found that covering or downplaying or hiding one’s identity like my example earlier not sharing that I’m a queer woman so that I can blend in and nobody asks too many questions there’s lots of versions of covering or downplaying or just not showing up as your full self uh Harvard Business Review found that women are often penalized for being assertive in the workplace so you can say the exact same thing as a male presenting colleague and be deemed as aggressive or rude or out of line especially if you are a woman of color your likelihood of being labeled as angry is much higher than it is for a white man the book disciplined Minds it’s a the whole title of the book a critical look at salary professionals and the Soul battering system that shapes Our Lives by Jeff Schmidt that sounds like a super interesting book that’s why it is on my list but the flattering system I mean it is in so many ways um but one of his observations was that qualified professionals are less creative and diverse in their opinions and habits than non-professionals and I think that that goes back to what we’ve been talking about if you go back to the factory floor and even the safety of conforming the same thing all the time was safe and that was how you got promoted if you showed up and you did the things the way you were supposed to do them for x amount of years you would be promoted that doesn’t get you Innovation that doesn’t move from doesn’t get you the wheel it doesn’t get you sliced spread it doesn’t get you the Cutting Edge of things that’s a violent metaphor it doesn’t get you a shiny new coin right right it is the iPhone when it came out a very disruptive tool that has changed the way we all live in smartphones since it came out yes yep and so how might we disrupt professionalism so we need to start shifting to an intersectional and for those of you that don’t know that term intersectional uh it was coined by someone have the name starts with a K I believe anyways her name but yes anyways it comes from this idea that we can belong to more than one identity and so you know uh and within that identity that that culture is not a monolith either so yes we have different cultures but we can be we can belong to more than one underrepresented group for example I am a woman I’m also a person of color in Indian woman and so thinking about that through those multiple lenses um and and so being really inclusive in that definition and agile because if we saw from those examples we haven’t been agile in that definition in the past and as the world changes we need to also shift that definition based on the market that we’re in and the world that we’re in and so it’s not to really I I don’t feel like it’s about crazy this new definition but really being less committed to having a definition so this Dei Focus professionalism is about creating a workplace that values and promotes diversity Equity inclusion in all aspects of the organization it’s a commitment to creating a culture of respect fairness and inclusivity where everyone feels valued and supported mm-hmm and so these are the pillars so at the disruptors we believe that we have to look at everything as a system and so if you really want sustainable change if you want agility in your organization if you want to create the the creativity and have that not Dei sit under one person’s remit but really become part of the culture you have to look at it through these four pillars and so it starts with your leadership it starts with the commitment it starts with that vision for what that looks like not just for professionalism but as a whole for your business you need to really look at this strategically and align your Dei Vision to the business Vision so your diverse Equity inclusion Vision has to be aligned to that and I I we see that a lot with people where they’re like there’s so much out there we don’t know where to start it’s because you haven’t connected it to your vision your gaps and so then that comes the educational piece and this is not linear but there’s also that educational piece that you need to think of which is what what is it that we don’t know that we need to know there’s always going to be things that you don’t know but what are the major things that are getting in the way of you being a Dei leader what are all of those interventions that you could do but what are the ones that are going to be the most impactful in terms of Shifting the behaviors and skills in your organization to what is going to make your business more profitable and your people happier and more committed more engaged and then the Talon pillar and I’m going to go into more detail on this is really just the people the skills and the and the career development the engagement that you’re seeing the psychological safety all of that exists within that system as well and then all of those other supportive systems of the whole system the systems within the systems if you will of like just really having that sustainable Equitable change supported by the HR policy by the practices by really everything that is a process within the business is really integrated to that and again this is why it has to start with leadership because the leaders are overseeing all of this and creating all of this so when they’re trying to Outsource that to someone even if you are Outsourcing it to a Dei strategist you need to bring them into the organization and help them understand what’s really happening at all levels right and so now looking at professionalism that really fits under the talent pillar and so this is like a typical Talent pipeline it’s not always this linear but this is your typical Talent pipeline from sourcing to attracting those people to your organization and recruiting actively recruiting them the candidate assessment the interviews but also your applicant tracking system has built-in bias in terms of what professional looks like the offer even how you’re presenting that offer in terms of like what different groups might value and what different groups might understand about the offer the onboarding the team Norms that are developed this is very much under that culture that corporate culture lens and you can have Team Norms that are different than the overall corporate Norms but it all kind of fits into that standard typical patriarchal corporate culture typically so really understanding how are we being agile and flexible with these Norms that we’re creating and how when we’re bringing in a new person are we taking a step back to say are we still being inclusive because now if we’re we’ve suddenly said okay now we want to increase diversity how ready are you for that diversity in terms of like if if you see the retention rate of your diverse candidates go down it doesn’t necessarily mean that it was about them it could be that your system wasn’t set up for them to thrive right because they’re coming from those different cultures and so how are you assessing performance and potential and that’s a key one because I feel like people don’t understand the difference between the two like performance is what you do what you achieve what you create potential is about what you could do in the future and the criteria for assessing both of those should be different and of course riddled with bias and so how much are you standardizing those performance ratings as well as your hypo assessments and and how are you making sure there’s accessibility to the behind the scenes succession planning that’s happening at a leadership level and I know I used to be in those rooms I used to be doing having those Talent conversations and it is hard because you’re especially in a really large organization they end up looking at their top talent and their lowest Talent everyone else in the middle 90 of the employees get forgotten absolutely and so it’s about how are we making sure that we have equal accessibility to Talent programs and career development opportunities it’s the comp band The recognition that again get a look at that from an intersectional lens and I mentioned the development interventions the the mentorship and sponsorship that Alexandria mentioned and as well as the off-boarding again it’s a it’s a misstep for a lot of people because they just say okay check in the box but there’s a lot of data in why people are leaving and so that’ll help you look back at this whole system and say okay let where are the gaps if people are leaving who are underrepresented groups where are the gaps and so really asking these questions Um this can be a framework for you you can use this as a tool take this back to your organization so look at every step of the process and say okay where are we lacking diversity what are the biases at play in each of these steps are we approaching this from a human-centered lens objectively and business centered yes we want Business Center too we want we need to keep the business running but it needs to be both so where are we finding that perfect marriage of human and Business Center because remember your customers are humans and so so they’re your employees centered within the more you’re going to connect to the humans outside of the organization as well um and who might we be excluding at each critical phase because you might be doing well it’s at a lot of these stages but maybe when it comes to to developmental opportunities you’re not you’re not giving people equal access and also thinking about equality versus Equity I even see Dei leaders kind of mix up these two equality is about treating everybody the same yeah right but when we’re all different we don’t want to be treated the same so Equity is about recognizing that the playing field is not level and we do need to treat some people differently yeah you might have to have an ERG for a specific group and say no to an ERG for another type of group right because because one group has historically lacked access to these kind of things right and and the dominant group we’re not seeing issues with their Career Development so really being deliberate about that and and inclusive and intersectional about that and also asking what are the barriers to entry at each of these stages like challenge the credentials that you’re using just because you’ve always recruited from this University or you have a good relationship with this networking group like those are the yes it makes recruitment easier it makes a lot of things easier in the short term but in the long term it’s going to be bad for your business and for your people yes and so all of these standards are happening yeah so shifting to the bona fide occupational qualifications also because this will keep you above board in terms of liability because you you can get sued for not hiring people based on these things so really being clear what is it that people really need to do the job what will make them stand out from other candidates because we’re not asking to lower the bar on Talent we are asking you to be clear on your bar for talent and and challenge the bar not lowering it we’re just challenging it and often when you challenge it you’re actually elevating it when you’re removing the bias so getting out of that myth that that’s lowering the back the bar on Talent yep

    and so that’s it any thoughts or questions Dr carrion that was awesome this was really awesome and I’m glad that you guys touched on um the kind of where things are as well as the historical component because I do not believe that a lot of people recognize that there is a significant historical component as it relates to how these definitions have come up and why these definitions are still in play is because a lot of the founders of the history of quote unquote the standards we have now are still operating right um I liken it to the complaints people make every year when it comes to election time and how Congress is still full of all these people on oxygen tanks like why right move on right things are growing things things are expanding and it’s the same thing with the workspace we need to honor what it has been how far it has taken us but we also need to now be excited and um prepare ourselves to take on the expansion and the opportunities for growth and Innovation around these mental models as we were saying earlier that require disruption they do well the whole thing that we’ve always talked about right for individuals when you move from a fixed mindset in a growth mindset we got you to where you are right now is not going to get you to where you want to go that’s still the same for business because it’s humans running it so what got business to where it is right now is not going to take business into where we need it to go for the future of work and what is actively coming at us faster than ever before right right and the the the new Workforce that’s coming in annually there’s a new Force coming in every you know few months they are not tolerating the same things they are absolutely not tolerating the the um identity minimization stuff they are who they are and they’re bold in it and I am absolutely elated for that oh yes it’s necessary right it is so necessary work is supposed to be fun yeah it’s supposed to be fun it is and um the new wave of folks coming in want that they want it to be fun they also want it to be valued and they want consistent stimulation yeah and it goes beyond what they want but it also goes to how the world is evolving and so with AI with all of this disruption we need to be thinking outside of the box we need to be more agile we need to adapt and so the more we stay in that mindset of what worked in the past let’s try that right the more your business is going to fail right and that’s why like it’s the innovators that are going to survive and so to be Innovative you need to let go of the past and you need we still want to learn from the past don’t get me wrong right I mean you brought the past into because we need to know okay what part of that are we hanging on to but what what is the fear that’s getting in the way and what is this mindset around um inclusion of our employees is going against the business because if you’re really able to tap into your people you can motivate and coach and develop them in ways that your business can transform beyond your own imagination I truly believe that I really do right but I think it comes back to the points that you were making earlier Justin around that um command and control right if I allow if I have a leader who has been doing this for the better part of 30 years of my career or 40 Years of my career and I’ve been consistent in getting these particular outputs and my return on investment and that makes me feel good if I now allow for different thinking and challenging the bar I lose the perception is I use control and you’re obsolete right what I know and then I become obsolete it feels like an existential crisis but it’s not it’s a call to leadership it’s a call to new types of thinking and new skill development yeah yeah and it’s a call to to to your ultimate success as a leader because you will fail if you don’t adapt but it’s part of being a leader and so it’s not that we’re saying okay command and control there are ways to hang on to that a bit you know if that’s your comfort zone We’re not gonna make you leave your your data and your spreadsheets and all of that behind we still want to be there we can control numbers we can control like but it’s like what is the what are the numbers telling us in terms of the future what is that story what is how are we starting to think about the way the skills for the future because the skills for the future are very much different from what we needed in the past yeah very very much different because the the the the the command and control work is being disrupted by AI that predictability anything that’s predictable anything that’s codable it is is it’s being replaced the skills we need for the future is thinking outside the box to really like a higher level thinking in terms of design in terms of Storytelling in terms of Symphony in terms of these are these are I’m stealing these from um a book a whole new mind what is that the book a whole new Mind by I want to say Daniel pink I could be wrong but he has written a new book about the skills for the future and so like part of that is like how do all these things play together how are we telling that story and how are we now thinking more from a right brain approach command and control is a little bit more left brain and so even if you’re a left brain person I’m a left brain person we have to move toward that right brain type of thinking yeah yeah absolutely yeah well this has been a lovely conversation hopefully you got everything you needed out of it and more and more lots more than than I because you know how this goes right you always have an idea like you have an idea but then I’m learning to allow so I was like I trust people in their spaces so let me see just from this little idea what can be interpreted and so definitely um got more than I had had conceived so I’m very grateful for the energy um and of course the time justly that you put this you know together it’s worth it

    certainly agreed to go through this and putting together and I would love to um loop back on some components of it um and have further discussion with you guys about the aspects of identity because I’m getting questions from folks around um some of the the identity components and how to deal with this at work so folks are still struggling with spaces of pronouns still struggling with the spaces of um gender Transitions and what how those you know all the things that come up with that um and then of course what that means and you mentioned it in the early in the early slides around um feminine masculine that patriarchy and the ways in which these shifts are occurring yeah is it now a new form of patriarchy right and what was what will that what will that then mean ways that I can authentically identify and show up and you know I just one point on that do you know who I Look to as leaders in this in this space of challenging gender uh assumptions and gender bias is the non-binary gender fluid Community because they are having to lead and disrupt our our ideas about gender and they’re able to do it in a way that women we haven’t been able to because we have been conditioned and have felt like okay a lot of us do feel more feminine and subscribe to that culture and we’re okay with that it feels okay but for folks who don’t subscribe to the binary at all it gives us like a new way of thinking and even if you think of how the human brain has evolved from this binary thinking because if we look at the brain systems and how those have evolved the binary thinking has been replaced Now by possibility thinking of multiple options of not looking at things at the binary because if we stop looking at everything as a binary we’re going to be more Innovative yes yeah it’s all a spectrum it’s all the spec and that is what I say to people and I respect both sides of the conversation I respect the folks who are asking for the space and opportunities and forging ahead to have this dialogue and to support people in understanding but I also um respect the side of I’m tired there’s just all this stuff constantly coming at me that I was supposed to do this I’m not supposed to say this I’m supposed to ask this I’m tired and so a lot of people have like hands up I’m tapped out I don’t want to hear anything you know so figuring out because you’re looking at it as extra work right it is not extra work it’s about right it’s enhancing the way you think yeah yeah so I’d love to have that conversation absolutely as well about how we navigate that space how we navigate that space personally and then how to help others navigate that space as well as we do the work because all of us are on you know at a different point yeah we can’t do this alone we need we need to collapse it is fascinating to me when I reach out to certain colleagues I’m like hey we don’t really know each other but we’re doing similar work and I’d love to connect with you I’d have time for you oh okay I’m sorry to bother you mm-hmm it is fascinating to me how many people still have that that approach as if just you and your thing can run all of the work that needs to be done it’s an individualistic mindset and it’s also a symptom of a bigger cultural problem which is we have a lot of women women of color who are overworked and under recognized and so they’re in a system that’s not supporting them and that’s showing up in terms of then we have we’re forced into Conformity into this individualistic Conformity right yeah because we don’t all have the privilege to be able to to to shift out of it

    got to put it down I I hosted a woman of color circle a few weeks back and the first thing I said is I do not identify as a strong black woman mm-hmm

    so subscribe to that so if any of you do please drop some ones in the chat and then tell me how you feel about it and they were all like I’m tired I’m like exactly yeah that is such a damaging that’s such a damaging stereotype I don’t think people realize it’s a damaging stereotype they did a study so one of the followers or one of the people I follow on Tick Tock um shared this study where um they looked at depression in black women versus non-black women and the in the black population so the symptoms were identical like hopelessness all these kind of things that except for black women were more stealth I don’t want to say self-deprecating I think it was like self-hatred and self-blame and I feel like that comes from that stereotype of strong black woman and it’s like oh you now you’re depressed like now you’re now you’re analyzing your depression and saying you shouldn’t be depressed where other populations are just saying well I’ve lost hope I need medication or whatever it is where they’re not beating themselves up about having depression as much which I actually identify with that because I’ve been there on that self-awareness staircase of just feeling like like oh I feel this way but I don’t want to feel this way I I’m stronger than this this and then beating myself up for my feelings which your feelings are like their feelings right they’re just guides yeah what you need to shift to so yeah there’s a lot more certainly for us to unpack and discuss in the in the what I have now you know tagged as this identity informed human-centered design work because people keep forgetting human Alexander and I were talking about it the other day like how do you like how do you forget that core part yeah I think people get overwhelmed because humans The Human Condition shows up in so many different ways sure but at the core we all just want to be interesting valued respected exactly and that’s and if you just came from that place like people wouldn’t be fighting about the pronouns like come on we’ve been using pronouns oh yes for language changes all the time it was created yeah oh yes languages don’t even have pronouns so like get over it well this has been a really lovely conversation um being respectful of your time as it is almost 8 30 on the east coast and definitely continued one I think there’s yes we will we certainly will so thank you both for the time thank you for sponsoring this week for me supporting and we will certainly be keeping in touch I sent um I think jessalyn you told me you may be out next week but um Alexander let me know so we can do a collective speakers meet up so that would be great yeah thank you guys both have a lovely evening thank you guys connect again soon we will all right goodbye

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  • Bias in Bias out:The power of data and its profound impact on diversity, equity, and inclusion.

    Bias in Bias out: The power of data and its profound impact on diversity, equity, and inclusion


    Transcript

    In this insightful discussion, we delve into the power of data and its profound impact on diversity, equity, and inclusion. By harnessing data, we gain transparency into the demographics and representation across various ethnic groups, allowing us to make informed decisions at a societal, economic, and organizational level. Discover how data has provided visibility and prompted action towards creating a fairer and more inclusive society. Explore the crucial questions that arise from the available data, such as the underrepresentation of black people and people of color in the tech industry. We challenge the assumptions and biases that hinder progress and seek ways to bridge the gap, acknowledging that the answer is not as simple as lack of interest. Uncover the potential of data to guide our efforts in creating a tech industry that reflects the true diversity of our population. Discover the importance of data transparency, exposing biases in the hiring process, and the need for standardized data collection across companies. By adopting a centralized approach to data collection and sharing, we can address disparities, identify biases, and promote fairness in the application and selection process. Learn how the anonymization of resumes and the use of unbiased algorithms can play a crucial role in mitigating bias and creating a level playing field. Join us as we discuss the impact of current data collection norms on the black community. Examine the challenges of collecting accurate data from diverse locations and communities, and the importance of education and communication in gaining trust and participation. Together, let’s leverage the power of data to drive positive change and create equal opportunities for all. Don’t miss this thought-provoking conversation on the power of data in advancing diversity, equity, and inclusion. Subscribe to our channel for more insightful discussions on important social and technological topics.

    admin@jobdisruptors.com






  • Are We There Yet ? A Conversation on Women s Progress in the Tech Industry

    Are We There Yet ? A Conversation on Women s Progress in the Tech Industry


    Transcript

    hi everybody Welcome in this month is women’s history month and I’m super excited to be hosting all of our events this month with my co-founder Jasleen if you are new here my name is Alexandria as one of the co-founders of the job disruptors I am also a leadership coach for women in Tech and lgbtqia people in Tech we started the disruptors as a way to help people that are underrepresented in the Tech Community get jobs that they can thrive in and to support companies becoming human first companies uh I’m gonna hand it over to Jasleen so she can introduce herself hi everyone I’m Jasleen I am a career coach with a background in HR and as Alexandria said I’m also co-founder of the disruptors and today it’s you know it’s women’s history month and so we’re talking about are we there yet it’s funny when I hear I hear this this question I think of my kids in the back seat you know on the long journey and being like no we’re not there yet and I think the answer is the same here we’re not there yet I think we all know we’re not there yet um if you think we’re there then please listen into this conversation because we’ve got lots of nuggets to share with you to really think about the woman’s perspective so if you’re not a woman but even if you are a woman listening and just thinking about the journey that we’ve been on the women that have come before us and how we can start reimagining a future of work that includes us fully so we can show up as our whole selves and so on that note Alexandria what do we need to really pay attention to when we think about women’s history specifically in Tech yeah so there’s a whole lot of women’s history in the tech space specifically that has been erased or ignored and we’ve seen some changes in that more recently right we’ve got some books and movies that have come out to like highlight some of those pieces that were true but there’s still a lot of people especially outside of the tech space who don’t realize like the original computers were women doing math by hand right and the first computer in 1946 was programmed by six women and from the 40s through the 50s programmers were predominantly women because it was considered clerical or admin work and it wasn’t until this like 1967-ish they they started to realize that is actually super complex problem solving and they started training men in it but then we enter in with a whole bunch of bias problems as they started training men in it and pushing women out of it and there’s a lot of other things that happen along that way but the other pivotal turn turning point for losing women in the tech space specifically was in 1980 when the personal home computer started being marketed to boys and so it was a toy to that boys played with for games and so they were already exposed to computers and programming and familiar with what was happening so that by the time they got to college they were already advanced in their knowledge of computing systems and programming and those types of things where young girls were not encouraged to play with computers and so by the time they got to college and were maybe interested the entry-level courses were Beyond them and professors pushed them out because they didn’t have the prerequisite knowledge for them and then we enter in brilliance bias and some other things that we’ll talk about a little bit later but that’s kind of the history of women in the tech spaces like we dominated it for a long time and then got shoved out of it that really struck me what you said about marketing computers to boys because I’m a mom of two boys and I feel like when I’m paying attention to the games that they’re playing and it’s really disappointing to see that that marketing is still happening and it is it is very much centered around young boys and men and so when we think about the reasons why people would be attracted to computers at a young age it’s how are we even from a gaming perspective when we’re really thinking about okay what are we building in terms of getting people you know entertaining people and and and getting women or young girls into this space how are we centering it around their interests and when I say that I say that with a little bit of caution because a lot of the interests kids are led to to those interests based on stereotypes and so it’s also thinking about okay maybe some of these games young girls would want to be playing but I feel like today and I I you know I don’t want to be pessimistic about it I wish that those stereotypes weren’t so ingrained in our culture still for kids you think that we would have made a lot of progress um but I haven’t seen it and I keep hearing like just this morning I was telling you as I was trying to get my kids out the door my son was on his iPad and um one of the the remarks was around they were hiring these lunch ladies and and sorry we couldn’t find pretty ones and I was just like and I told you this morning I was a little frazzled that got me a little more frazzled this morning I was just like what are you listening to this is a Disney show and it’s already perpetuating these stereotypes that women should be you know more than nurturers and pay attention to Beauty that’s our value in the world and men are out there you know hunting and gaming and all these sort of things and and so thinking about that in terms of the culture that’s really when you when you said that it got me thinking and also when you look at the progress we’re still only at 26.7 of All Tech related jobs are held by women and only 11 of that at the executive level like that’s an issue that is an issue because that doesn’t reflect society and so when as a tech company if you you know if you’re a leader of a tech company if you work at a tech company you’ve got to be thinking again about the products that you’re creating and again it’s it’s that it’s that spiral of you know we’re gonna keep getting into that it’s a self-fulfilling prophecy if we’re not changing it at all levels and building a strong pipeline how are we actually going to create social change and remove the barriers and the stereotypes 100 and I think one of the things that comes up there right is the data Gap that is there and it’s like this invisible data Gap because we don’t we don’t know what we don’t know and the way humans process information right we know our own experience and that makes us the fish and water situation and if we are then surrounded by people who have similar experiences to us we aren’t able to think outside of that experience which is why diversity is so important to the process right so a prime example that comes to mind for that is when um Cheryl Sandberg got pregnant when she was at Google and she was in pain like it was a rough pregnancy for her she was having a hard time walking from the parking lot to the front of the building and she was like hey we need pregnancy parking none of the executives have thought about it before she got pregnant so it took a female executive on the team to be like hey this is a problem that we’re not looking at and they fixed it which great but that’s why diversity on Executive teams is important on boards is important and within all teams is important because you need that other perspective and experience in the world to be able to actually solve the problems for everybody yeah you won’t uncover the gaps in The Silo no we need we need women of all intersections and so being mindful of that too because I really want to talk about as we’re moving into women’s History Month we’re coming out of Black History Month and so we should be also thinking about women intersectionally because I think often and I can speak to this as a person of color you know sometimes I Stray away from oh women’s history you’re talking about white women and so it’s how are we also thinking about barriers that might be unique for women from an intersectional lens if you’re black indigenous person of color if you’re a queer woman if you’re a woman with a disability so really thinking about what are the barriers to access what what do we need to do to build a pipeline to make Tech friendly for all groups absolutely let’s talk about those barriers what do you think the barriers are right now in Tech specifically the women and women presenting people are still experiencing yeah so I could probably go on for more than an hour so I wanted to kind of kind of touch on a few points but I think it’s important to think about the barriers and the challenges in terms of the concrete things that we can measure and usually that’s when we start this Dei work that’s usually where we go right we go to representation things like that but then there’s also I think a more important bigger component that’s really going to create systemic change is the more difficult to measure often we can get qualitative data on it but unless we really are doing the work we’re not going to be able to measure those things so back to the measurable things it is things like the wage Gap right and so they’ve all they’ve also done a study on companies that do intersectional pay audits they actually hire women at 1.3 times higher percent than other companies who don’t do those audits so it’s important to think about if you’ve got a gap in that Talent pipeline maybe that’s one of the places that you might start looking and of course yeah that representation is is a good measurable Target but it’s not always enough so representation we talked about that at the you know at the beginning it is important but it is just one measure and if you’re not focusing on all the systemic things you’re not going to get there and the other one that’s pretty measurable that’s a huge part especially for women in Tech especially at you know when you’re getting to that leadership level so it’s it’s advancing women through like from entry level to uh you know whatever level they’re going to be as an individual contributor and then also where they call that the broken rung is when you go from Individual contributor to to leader we’re seeing that’s where the huge drop is so even organizations that are getting women into entry level positions they’re still that broken wrong and so I’ll speak to that a little bit of why I think that is when I talk about more of the less measurable components well the other thing that I want to draw attention to there is a lot of tech organizations especially startups they will have a lot of junior level women that fall off before they even get to the senior level of individual contributor runs like senior level positions like even within individual contributors there’s a broken rung outside of leadership yeah they’re almost there are two different tracks that both have rights that are broken in them yeah because you can think of a career advancement in different ways because not all women necessarily want to be leaders um but a lot do and so for those how are we making sure we’re advancing them but also for people who are entry level how are we making sure we’re not pigeonholing them into a role and how are we getting deeper into the technical capacity um or whatever that function is that they’re in how are we getting deeper into that individual contributor capacity because that’s not just good for the employee it’s good for your business as well um and it saves you money having to recruit from outside if there’s a skill that is is missing and so moving over to the less measurable things um well one of the things actually I wanted to mention that is measurable is women are over mentored and under sponsored at the middle level management um they’ve done a study on this and actually there are more women than men being mentored but the quality of the relationships is different and I think we’ll speak to that in a in another episode but in terms of sponsorship more of men’s mentors are actually sponsors and what a sponsor is because a mentor is someone who’s been there done that is going to show you the ropes you you’re on a similar path to them a sponsor can also be a mentor but they’re unique in the sense that they’re willing to put their name on the line to advocate for you to position you for roles to really go to bat for you and so there there have been studies on this as well that um women are seen as more risky appointments and that is why they’re not being sponsored as much We’re Men off the bat a mentor is there to also sponsor you so um if you if you kind of thinking no we uh I have a mentor or women in my organization have mentors that’s not enough think about what those mentors are actually doing in terms of opening doors um I think right there you just talked about the prove it again bias that that’s very much yeah exactly because the prove it again bias is and and that’s more of an invisible bias um because there’s there’s like I said we’re measuring the the mentorship right we can measure that the quality of that relationship is very much we’re not measuring that right and so we we need to start measuring the quality and getting out there and having conversations about this and also the lack of Role Models that’s another one that I’ve I’ve felt in my career where you get to a point where you’re like do I want to keep going because I see how women are treated I see how women are struggling and I see how this organization sees me and is it worth the effort um and so if we had more role models that we saw succeeding in this space that would have a huge impact so that is a barrier for sure yeah representation matters from the youngest age right so like let’s talk about that for a second because we are making some strides with um young children right they do these studies like oh draw a picture of a scientist draw a picture of a doctor draw a picture of whatever and more children are starting to draw women as like their default in that but we’re at like 25 or something like that it’s still ridiculously low yeah even though women make up more than 50 of the mathematics and chemistry and other stem degrees and overall make up more than 50 of undergraduate degrees just period And while in North America specifically in Western Europe that’s different in other parts of the country but like representation in their books at school when they talk about like the founders of certain Sciences or whatever they’re shown men specifically white men and so it’s starting at very young ages that that’s what they’re being shown and that hasn’t really shifted as much as it needs to and then shows and books and all of these other places that we aren’t seeing that and then video games is a whole other one having female ability like ability to be a woman character in a video game is few and far between especially in some of the more popular games and it’s definitely not the default yeah and that speaks to the more difficult to measure pieces and so like I love what you’re saying because even for us like if you were to just close your eyes right now and picture a genius like who did you picture right and so and so that is the invisible part of that and so the the more qualitative the more nuanced things that are difficult to measure is those what you just spoke to there the invisible gender bias the microaggressions that come from that bias and the entitlement that allows people to feel free to exercise those microaggressions without any sort of repercussions to their career um the invisible rules that stem from masculine culture this is an important one if you follow me on Tick Tock I talk about the invisible rules a lot because the invisible rules were made by and for men white men though white men and specifically and so I’ll give you an example of one of the invisible rules like men have the meeting before the meeting in masculine culture this is something that I learned the hard way where I had I had a lot of women managers and then my first um or my second manager who was a man um would always kind of be poking me and like and during presentations you’d be like didn’t you meet with this person before and and it was just so frustrating because I didn’t never got this feedback before and we were working with people across multiple time zones so I was I was very confused I’m like like I have I’d have to wake up at 5am to talk to this person and and so it was just really difficult but when I did more research into gender differences I realized that more often not than not masculine culture there’s this old boys club where people are having business conversations outside the meeting it might be on the golf course it might be you know in just one-on-one water cooler talk or when you’re connecting with someone it’s about saying I’m gonna pitch this idea do I have your support women aren’t taught to do that women are collaborators so we show up um and and we collaborate we say okay here we’re at the meeting to have the meeting I’ve prepared something and often when when we our ideas and opinions are rejected it’s been it’s being done so in that way because we’ve triggered the ego of the men who are saying I wasn’t told about this before the meeting and and so for me that was a huge like light bulb and now when I work with men I’m more mindful of that and how I’m gaining support from men outside of the meeting which to me again it seems so inefficient and counterproductive but if you’re working with men it ends up being more efficient right which is that double-edged sword in that like default standard of the Rules of Engagement still being masculine culture and there’s a certain level of like you can know the rules and have to play by them because that’s still what’s driving the business world but I would really like to have the conversation of is that what we should be doing right just because that’s what we’ve always done does not mean that’s what we should be doing and is that even like you said the most effective way to be doing this and the default being like oh well you have the meeting before the meeting that’s just it just is right it’s just so normal and that’s what we’re going to talk about on March 29th we’re going to talk about when do we mindfully disrupt because this shouldn’t be a conversation for the women listening it shouldn’t be about you always changing yourself you always adapting because the the bigger issue and and one of the other things I was going to speak to is how we are valuing stereotype typical masculine traits versus stereotypical masculine or feminine traits and approaches and there are times where being more collaborative is better when we’re trying to get to Innovation when we’re trying to get everyone aligned so that they can go execute on their part of the their the business but and there’s times where masculine culture works like it could in the military command and control urgent situations that that there is a time and place for that and so I might because I I’m very much stereotypically feminine and so I have to get into that more regimented command and control approach sometimes when there’s a big project with multiple pieces and we’re at the at the end of that project and so it’s really not it’s not about saying okay let’s do it women’s way let’s do it men’s way it’s about choosing the approach and choosing the style uh based on the circumstances and the environment valuing them both equally and just being really deliberate about which one we’re choosing which is where you enter in like the nuances to those conversations right which is a enculturated feminine trait of being able to do complex problem solving with Nuance that is not necessarily pushed or taught or held as valuable in the masculine trait world and that’s you have to every moment is different right like you can have generalized rules and like things that you’re looking for like oh well if it looks like a duck and it quacks like a duck like it probably is a duck but knowing what the Nuance is and making that informed decision like you just said like that’s super super important in business because if you’re not looking at everything you’re gonna make bad decisions totally totally we have to be really mindful of this and really open to adapting and also understanding that you know when we when we were kind of ingrained in this corporate culture this came from a different time the environment is changing when we look at how Tech is disrupting all Industries we need more strategic thinkers we need more empathy we need more openness we need more collaboration we need more stereotypically feminine traits and so how are we integrating that and how are we how are we bringing women into the business to really help us do that and and really allowing them to not not and I’m going to get into this when we talk about Miss because there’s myths around that as well um but the other thing I want to speak on before we get to to the myth is the double standards for women and so um if you’re a man listening to this thinking about you know when you look at the advice for men out there because I kind of did a quick Google search it says okay tell women to speak up in meetings um encourage or not tell them but encourage them to do this encourage them to do that you know work on their confidence all this kind of stuff but on one hand women are being told be confident speak up on the other hand when they do it they’re questioned on their decisions they’re questioned on their ideas more so than men they’re seen as more aggressive they’re seen as too opinionated they’re seen as difficult and so there are a narrower band of acceptable behaviors for women at work and that’s not fair and so we need to start pushing the boundaries of that I feel like it’s coming we’ve started doing it in the last generation I’ve seen change but there’s still a lot of work that needs to be done in this space well and then again speaking to your point earlier about the intersectionality of that right if you have multiple identities right you are a woman and that has its own band but if you are a black woman or an indigenous woman or another woman of color you have an even narrower band because not only do you have the band that is woman you have the band that is your ethnic band as well that’s been pushed on you and like how you can show up and not be seen as the angry black woman yeah the double standard is is huge and out there and I think the other piece that comes into that is the default expectations and if you say no to those then you are also perceived negatively right like the unpaid nurturing work that has to be done in the office it’s Auto assigned to women they’re getting the coffee the planning the parties the buying of gifts like all of those pieces are undervalued or un not valued not even under just like not value period but required and if women say no like oh I’m not going to do meeting minutes oh well you’re just being difficult like yeah where a man can say no a man can say no I’ve seen this happen where men will say or men just don’t say anything and wait for the woman to say something until the they have a higher tolerance for that discomfort in the room when when you know we’re looking for a volunteer so I think it’s just yeah being mindful of how we’re sharing those less promotable tasks yes so let’s get into the myth shall we because I I wanted to start with the myth that we’ve already touched on and that is that bringing in women of all intersections is actually lowering the bar on talent and I’ve heard this because I’ve been in a you know I was in HR for 10 years and so you know when we would set um targets or goals around around hiring women we were never saying you know we this means that we’re lowering the bar and they don’t have to be competitive right never said that but that was the assumption that was always made and that I felt that resistance from the business and and sometimes it was because yeah it was harder sometimes to find a woman when we were recruiting from you know the stem pool because it was more competitive um like other competitive organizations competing for for talent that is the top talent of women and so if you’re not able to achieve that that says something about your organization that says something about your mindset and your culture and also the potential biases that are at play yeah the huge one being the per the programmer persona right like the stereotypical oh they don’t look like a programmer well in our minds what does a programmer look like and it’s pretty ingrained I would say in all of our minds right it is the socially distant or awkward uh nerd who just sits in his basement and codes all day right like there’s so many levels of enculturation and bias that go into that stereotype there like let’s just talk about like at a young age like oh well women don’t want to be programmers like I have parents come to me all the time saying that their boys just stay up late and just hyper focus on programming like well first of all young girls are punished for being anti-social in a different way than young boys are so they don’t fall into those single-minded obsessions typically because they are enculturated not to yeah and so we’re not going to see the same presentation of enjoyment or love or hobby attachment in young girls as you are in young boys and then when the culture itself is filled with misogyny they don’t want to engage with it because like they’re not being welcomed they’re being made fun of for being a boy right and like all of these pokes at them not being them and they don’t get to just be in the space absolutely and a lot lot of those spaces we’re hearing about sexual harassment right because that’s another one of the barriers that I didn’t mention I feel like that that is still happening yes I know it’s happening I’ve had clients that it’s happened to in the tech space this is still happening and so even though we’re talking about this more Nuance this kind of stuff like if you’re not addressing the real stuff like no okay not real stuff this is all real stuff the tangible stuff be careful with my words but if we’re not addressing the tangible overt sexism and actual like violence against women in the workplace then like that in itself speaks to the fact of how you’re upholding the patriarchy upholding misogyny and so um I don’t know that just kind of got me thinking about creating safety for women creating safe spaces and that like I mean that really extends to even before women are coming into the workplace as the young girls how are we creating a safe environment within Tech 100 yeah getting rid of the misogyny is a huge piece of it and making it safer so talking about this is more of a barrier than I think necessarily a myth but we have algorithms that are feeding a whole lot of things these days and there’s companies that rely on algorithms to help them with recruiting and to help them make decisions but the algorithm itself is biased right so there’s one that was created by Guild that was meant to find high level programmer and like high level programming aptitude and they found a very strong correlation between Advanced skilled programmers and heavy visits to this one manga site and like it was a very strong correlation but the thing that wasn’t talked about with that correlation even though it was entered into the data and like choosing programmers it wasn’t talked about how much leisure time do women have they don’t have the same amount of leisure time to go sit on a manga site to be talking about manga all day also those sites are tend to not be welcoming to women you get fetishized if you are in that space or told to go away or you don’t know what you’re talking about and the misogyny shows up so then you choose to not go engage in those spaces even if you liked that thing so you wouldn’t be found as a highly skilled programmer as a woman because you would have been knocked out from the algorithm because you didn’t have that in your social network yeah as a parent like I’m listening to that and really thinking about how am I raising my boys to because they’re very much into gaming and they’ve done like coding classes already and how are they making that inclusive to their their friends that are girls and how are they calling out the misogyny in those spaces because again speaking to our culture it’s so ingrained in our culture are still I’m seeing it all the time and so being mindful of that and and having those conversations with our kids too absolutely because I think the piece there is how would they even recognize it because it is so normalized right and I think adults even have trouble recognizing sometimes when something is misogynist because it’s so normalized as just is that you don’t even perceive it as happening anymore absolutely so what what are some other myths that we’re hearing in the tech space about women I would say the Brilliance bias is another huge myth that there is not just like women don’t have the Raw Talent or the Brilliance and it they just don’t they aren’t innate to programming or to the tech space like none of that is true right there’s the myth that men have more analytical and logical minds I think no like the way our brains process information is different but that does not make it purely analytical or emotional right because that’s the one that women get all the time yeah you can just process the information differently in different spaces in our brains and it comes out differently like on the other end from that and that should be acknowledged yep but it doesn’t mean that we aren’t logical or analytical yeah and you can be both at the same time too I’m very emotional and analytical and so thinking about and also thinking about because I I I think I shared with you I I listened to a podcast with Daniel pink and he’s talking about his whole new mind book which is talking about the the skills we need for the future and how we need to evolve and a lot of that is moving away from left brain thinking to right brain thinking it’s it’s more about the empathy about one of the one of um the strengths he calls it Symphony really seeing seeing the bigger picture and how things play and are interconnected women are conditioned to be more in that space and so thinking about not just okay yes we need people who can code yes we need people who are analytical linear sequential spreadsheet based we need those people still um Ai and and Outsourcing is disrupting that a little bit we also need people who are using their right brain who are creative that’s how we see Innovation and so it’s about deliberately thinking about the skills you need in your organization versus the the gender um letting the gender bias dictate or letting the your your bias about what a tech company what talent should look like in a tech company thinking outside of the box in terms of where what are the skills for the future that are going to get my business to where it needs to be and I think that that’s huge because the future is it’s coming quickly right like the innovation in Tech is so rapid and our turnover is so rapid at this point we have just thinking about from when we were children to now and what how your children are experiencing the world it is starkly different right like I remember that stupid dial-up tone and like oh I’m gonna go get on the internet but let me go make a bowl of cereal while we get it on and now I have it at my fingertips at any moment at anywhere right and so our turnover trajectory is huge and it’s we can’t mind read right we can’t we don’t have a crystal ball we don’t know what’s coming but we do know how the human brain works and what we’re looking for and what we’re wanting and we do engage with things better when they have good user interfaces and good user experiences right ease of use and intuitiveness is vitally important it doesn’t really matter if you have this like raw code if I can’t interact with it it doesn’t matter how powerful it is if I can’t figure out what button to push it doesn’t matter how cool it is yep and so that’s where that like the linear like programming like functionality piece gets matched with the aesthetic piece and the follow through and like the intuitive design pieces yep that design was one of those one of those six senses he calls them Daniel pink identifies as something that we need as in terms of a skill for the future so that yeah for me it’s like it’s really looking at diversity is going to help your business period yes so another myth I wanted to touch on there well there’s a couple I don’t know how we’re doing for time but another one is that motherhood impacts performance and potential and so this was a big one for me in HR I used to see this a lot where women would go on maternity leave here in Canada it’s usually people would take a year and so when they came back we’d have women who were on the high potential list like we would do succession planning and we would do assessments on people’s potential and and that this is an important thing to note because if you’re not really separating performance and potential you need to start doing that because we spoke to the the prove it again bias which is women have to prove themselves again and again and again and they’re promoted based on potential right men are or sorry they’re they’re promoted based on sustained performance men are promoted based on potential what they can do in the future and not critiqued on sustained performance and so for that’s important one to know but also like what happens is we don’t get seen for our potential but when we become a mother we all of a sudden our potential score goes down and so all of that sustained performance before we went on maternity leave it’s ignored and now it’s assumed that the priorities have shifted and the focus has shifted which it it has of course but in my experience what I saw a lot of was women then saying okay I’m going to push back I need boundaries I’m going to go to part-time those people were getting paid part-time hours working full-time hours because they were logging on from home because you know even in a part-time job like things need to get done and it just wasn’t fair because now they’re not on the succession plan to be promoted to a leader they need to have that sustained performance they need to be seen in a full-time position and and I just saw that bias happen so much and you see that also shown in the data that women’s earning potential from the minute they become a mother goes down dramatically for men who become fathers it says on the exact same trajectory regardless of who Took the leave right regardless of who Took the leave so um yeah so that’s a big one and near and dear to my heart obviously I am a mom and so I I know that as mothers need more flexibility but needing more flexibility doesn’t mean that they’re not going to produce the same amount of work or the same quality of work or their potential is now capped well and I think the other thing to talk about there because like that’s one of my I mean there there’s a whole lot of the the unwritten rules of the business world right so needing flexibility and then it being seen as a negative that you have asked for or are engaging with that flexibility being seen as like you aren’t the same team member right like oh well you can’t stay late for work well why not right why can’t you stay late for work because the primary Child Care responsibilities fall in the woman and it isn’t a question to start like oh well if my I want my wife’s boss to be just as flexible so like I’m going to allow this why is the question not why are the men not stepping up in those Child Care responsibilities so that the woman can stay late and I’m gonna say this one is a hard one because Society conditions women to be the nurturers as well I truly wanted to be the nurturer in my career or in my life and and so I wanted that but I still want the career and so it becomes difficult because yes we need men stepping up and doing more of the household work yes we definitely do I so I’m not arguing that and I feel like we need to allow women to make that choice we need allow to allow men to make that choice because I also saw that in my career where people were like what he’s taking a paternity leave when when my baby was born I just got to see them for like a week and then I was back to work and so a lot of that is Envy now that is being projected on younger men by the older generation and so we have to stop doing that yes we have to allow men to step up we have to change the conditioning so that women don’t feel like bad moms for prioritizing work but we can’t do it all at the same time and we definitely can’t do it all if we don’t have the support yeah 100 and like those same cultural norms right that oh well if you’re prioritizing your career as a woman then you’re a bad mom like what if her husband wants to be the one who steps up and now you’re judging both people and making both people feel bad about how they are in the world right and that speaks to just generalized enculturation and pushing back I’ve had to fight and learn the lessons of what it means to be a woman and a girl because my natural tendencies are not that right I had to learn how to empathetically interact with the world around me and learn those lessons because I am much more of a drive and analytical and get it done and process oriented person and I got like oh you’re not girly enough like you’re not feminine enough you’re not all of these things and that affects like how you show up in the world right if you’re not you’re stereotypical in culturation you get ignored or pushed to the side or you’re weird yeah and the standards for women just keep going up and up and up and becoming less attainable and at odds with each other yes like that’s how I feel like I think when we think about beauty standards when we think about okay what does Prof and this came out in the McKinsey women at work study too is like people were reporting that you know what looked professional when people were talking about leadership presence they were really talking about how they dress or whether you’re wearing too much jewelry whether the way you wear your hair the way you wear your makeup whether you’re getting Botox and injections and all these things which again is like being fed to us as like we need to be keeping up with you know whoever and so and so it’s like all of these standards that are being held against us and we’re always feeling judged men don’t have that same like that same the double standards right the men don’t have all of those double standards and those unreasonable standards in terms of every aspect of their being and so I think that’s an important thing to note another um another myth I wanted to talk about especially for for young Talent is you have to be able to code to work in Tech so this is one that I think I’ve even made that assumption at times but I know that I’ve got clients who’ve who’ve made it really far and continue to progress in Tech who don’t know how to code is it a lot of people prefer it and I think this is one that we need to think about in terms of like okay why are they needing why are they asking for it why are you asking for it as an employer as a job Seeker why are they asking for it to think about whether that’s going to deter you from applying for the job because often it isn’t about the ability to code it is about the ability to communicate well and understand the business and so I think we also need to think about creative ways of bringing women into Tech who have specific skill set specific expertise and also the diversity but whether they need to learn how to code or whether they need to learn how to communicate in a different way really thinking about when are we challenging people to have that component of it and also recognizing that there are many people who can’t code that are working in Tech yeah and I think that that’s a there’s lots of different job positions and requirements and needs like program product um project management you’ve got customer success um scrum Masters like you have lots of different options and opportunities that are outside of the development but even within development there’s different skills right are you data are you back end are you front end are you uh user experience like are you architecture and like building it out like there’s lots of different spaces within Tech that are not equal and not the same and knowing insecurity is another one right like it’s a different kind of coding or a different kind of engineering depending on what part of security you’re in um or I.T specifically right like I come out of the I.T space and ran I.T departments and like I don’t I’m dangerous coding that’s that’s the moral story I know enough to really break things and make the engineers very angry like I can get done what I need to get done but it’s not pretty and it’s not nice and somebody’s gonna come in after me and be like what is this and I’m like it was good enough that’s what that is and so knowing all of your different options into and around the text space I think is super important um and then I know there’s tons of more myths lots of other things to talk about barriers yeah and I would love to invite anybody who is watching like put in the comments what are some of the barriers you’ve maybe encountered if you feel safe sharing or myths that you’ve seen or that play out that we didn’t address because I’d love to hear from everybody if you’re listening on the podcast later then come over to any of our social media pages and let us know like what is your experience as a woman in the tech space and if you’re an older woman in Tech has it changed over the course of your career because I’d be super interested to hear about that as well but the last question that I want to address before we close is are we there yet no right we made that very clear I think it’s obvious yeah but how will we know when we get there whoo this is a big one I could uh like this there are many ways that we can tell I I think most people are focusing on representation and wage Gap yes those are important yeah we need to close the wage Gap we need to continue to do intersectional pay audits we need to continue with paid transparency and yeah we need the representation of the business that reflects the world that we’re in so that’s a given the other thing we need to pay attention to is the retention rates how much are we actually retaining women of all intersections so you may say oh we got tons of women but why are black women leaving why are indigenous women leaving why are people of color leaving and and there are differences between those groups don’t like paint women all with a broad brush brush either because the McKinsey study actually showed that women of color are actually more ambitious to to advance to leadership positions than why white women and so that was an interesting actually that one kind of surprised me I thought it would be pretty similar um but really just kind of and also not taking the data as like that’s representative of your Workforce like get out there get to know people get to know what the issues are going on um and this next one this actually is is really important because before we get to the there are different Milestones so yes the representation of the business at all levels represents the society we live in right yeah but the other piece is the the Milestone that comes before that that is where you’re actually because people are like oh I can’t move the needle on Dei I can’t move the needle the the Milestone that I really pay attention to is critical mass and so this concept of critical mass like this comes from physics and it actually means when a chain reaction becomes self-sustaining and so what does that mean outside of physics in the workplace what that means is once we reach a critical mass the the the minority group feels okay being whole themselves showing up authentically instead of having to adopt to the behaviors the standards the mindset of the dominant group and so yeah we spoke to this a little bit as well be because it’s like how much do we change ourselves as women versus changing the system we’re not going to have success in changing the system which is the more more important piece until we get to a critical mass and so I’ve heard different numbers of what that’s going to look like um 30 is is one that people have thrown out there I haven’t seen enough sound data to know exactly what that number looks like I mean we can kind of follow physics I think but really thinking about what is that number where we’re going to start seeing that Chain Reaction we’re going to see the systems change we’re actually going to get some momentum that’s a big piece the other one is having a really strong pipeline of women starting with education if you’re if you’re struggling with entry level if you’re struggling with your new recruits and seeing enough women in that population who are qualified how are we reaching out to even before they get to that phase reaching out to the institutions building relationships with those educa educational institutions to say what are you doing to bring in women of all intersections what are you doing and how can we help where can we invest where can we build bridges for women Bridges yes yes building the bridges so that’s that’s a big one we’ll know we’re there when we have Bridges and a pipeline a strong pipeline of supported women um pay Equity we’ve already mentioned but also the piece of having inclusive benefits and HR policies and and you mentioned this before when we were chatting Alexandria’s even the infrastructure um you know the the parking space for women who are pregnant the tampons in the bathroom the breastfeeding room with a lock on the door a fridge with a lock so that people aren’t accidentally drinking the breast milk so these kind of things where if you’re especially in the States because women tend to go back to work earlier if they’re still breastfeeding like how are we making it an environment where you can also be a mother so those kind of things um within the facility that’s the one yes we have plenty of facilities that have medical units and they’ve got game rooms and they’ve got all tables free snacks dry cleaners right yeah there’s Sony Ericsson pays for people to get their house cleaned right like there are these elements yeah that individual companies have done to do that but they’re not the norm and they’re not the standard right they’re one-off and they’re big deals but access to daycare is huge yeah so doing an intersectional benefit um analysis to see where you are in terms of like really having perks that that support people instead of perks just to have Perks right just accessibility flexible work at home because I think I think that’s an interesting one to think about is Tech is one of the newest Industries or the I don’t know would we say the newest industry I don’t know but it’s like you would think that we would be further along in Tech than other Industries in this phase but I think because so much of it has been male dominated and because so much of it has been about the kind of sexiness of tech and making it look really lucrative um but you can still have both you can still attract talent and have those those things that you can be proud of but from an intersectional feminist lens um I think the thing that to draw attention to there in Tech is like technically speaking Tech has been around since the 40s right the first computers like all of those pieces has been around since the 40 but the tech industry for the way we would frame that now would really be like the.com boom and like the internet coming to everybody’s home and those types of things but the thing that stands out to me even still within the tech space that blows my mind all the time is the refusal to actually look at the data and acknowledge the gaps in the data and to disaggregate the data into sex and how that shows up and gender representation two different things right but looking at the overall intersectionality of what’s needed there is a blatant disregard for research and what data is telling us in an industry that is reliant on data and I find that to be like I I I don’t understand like I really have a hard time wait why like yeah why do we have all of these Norms when texts whole being is literally disruptive yeah you have an opportunity to be disruptive and to change things like we can move this a lot faster than what it goes into and I think it’s because again there’s that the the false narrative that people play in their mind that okay we’re going to use this data to make profit and then we will we’ll think about all of the people stuff later but if you integrate that and say let’s use this data to make our people more empowered happy productive and to make good business decisions this is what we really want to do we’re not and and you know at the disruptors when you sign up with us that’s we’re very much about integrating this it’s not about saying okay we’re going to put Dei over here and we’re going to do the Dei work and because then it becomes performative and it doesn’t really move the dial it’s about integrating Dei with the business results and like that’s really one of the other ways we will know that we’re there your business will be thriving yes your business will be thriving and and studies show this like with the organizations that have more diversity that have more representation more women in in senior executive roles they are thriving they’re 30 more profitable and they still have more work to do and and you know like we still have more work to do across the board but they are more profitable so believe the data don’t ignore the data um five minutes left five minutes left okay so HR policies was the other one that I really wanted to mention is really thinking about especially when it comes to flexibility because women are saying it over and over again we want flexibility and also rewards that match because that’s another one from the McKinsey study that women are overworked and under recognized how are we recognizing women in a way that they value and the other piece that I already mentioned is valuing those feminine traits equally and and that’s that’s basically all I have that I probably could go on and on we’re out of time but that’s how we’ll know that we’re there those are the those are the main things from my perspective no I agree with everything that you said and we are moving right I want to acknowledge that we have made progress not fast enough though right so we can celebrate the wins and keep working and so next week if you want to join us again we’re going to talk about how do we get there and really talking about some solutions and ways to get to those places that Jasleen just highlighted of how we’ll know where they are so please join us next week share this with anybody you know that would be interested in that um it’s posted on the page if you want to RSVP to it now um the other piece that we are going to be doing this month for women’s history so the framing all month is going to be focused on women women in Tech and what we’re doing how we can show up uh we are going to do a live Forum it’s going to be a LinkedIn audio which is a little different than what we normally do but that will allow you all to come and speak with us so it’ll be kind of like a town hall feeling to it we are looking for people to submit questions if you don’t feel comfortable speaking up that day you want to submit them anonymously we’ll have a link in today’s comments it’ll be in the show notes wherever you are accessing uh this audio or video we want to hear from you like what questions do you have about your career your experience as a woman in Tech do you want to decode something and figure out what’s really being said whatever questions you have please share them with us in our form and we look forward to having that conversation I’m really excited about that one I hope it is really interactive so put that in your calendars for March 22nd if you have not yet subscribed to the podcast we need more subscribers so we’ll also post the link again to the podcast in the comments and so subscribe on Apple Spotify anchor all the places and you’ll be able to listen to these because we know that for a lot of us it’s hard to come in and watch on videos so they’re all in podcast format share that with your co-workers share that with your leaders if you are a leader in the tech space please reach out to us um you can comment below and we’ll DM you because we’re looking for a few Partners to Pilot some stuff with so because of that you’re going to get a lot of that for free and so we’re not going to be offering that more than one so just if you’re if you’re interested in this space or even if you just want to get on the phone and have a conversation about what this might look like for your business and how you would integrate that with your business goals to really move the dial on both your business and diversity Equity inclusion let us know and I think I think that’s all we have for for calls to action I don’t know if I missed anything oh also I wanted to mention if you are a woman who is experiencing these issues I am a career coach and I will also post my link to uh to book a session so whether you’re wanting resume rewrites whether you want to advance your career get promoted whether you’re trying to do some soul searching and figure out your career path or figuring out how to mindfully disrupt the system um you can book a free 30-minute session with me and we can have a chat to see if it would be a fit yeah absolutely this has been a delightful conversation I am super excited for all of our topics this month and I appreciate you joining me Jasleen thank you bye y’all

    foreign

    admin@jobdisruptors.com






  • Identity at Work: What does being marginalized mean?

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    Identity at Work: What does being marginalized mean?


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    Transcript

    hi good morning good afternoon good evening wherever you are in the world we’re so glad that you’re joining us today uh my name is Alexandria I am one of the co-founders of job disruptors uh the disruptors and Jasleen is my co-founder here we also have our guest Kathleen and I’ll let them both introduce themselves in just a moment a little bit about me if you’re new here I am an executive leadership coach and the co-founder like a set of disruptors it’s job board and Community meant to serve those from underrepresented communities to find companies that they can thrive in Joseline you want to introduce yourself yeah I’m Jasleen I am a certified career coach and I focus on women in the tech industry and co-founder of the disruptors and so today this month has been all about amplifying and uplifting black voices it is Black History Month and today we’re talking about identity at work so what does it really mean to be marginalized in the workplace I think we all have sort of a mental model of what this means or what it could mean but we really want to have a thoughtful conversation about this because there’s a lot of nuance to this topic and we’re so excited to have Kathleen on here I’ve met Kathleen once before but I felt like I’ve known her forever because I’ve been following her on Tick Tock at KMJ diversity we’re both Tick Tock creators and love the content and we wanted to invite her into this space to have this conversation with us and so Kathleen would you like to tell us a bit about yourself yeah sure um my name is Kathleen Johnson uh pronouns or she her and I am over on Vancouver Island uh Sangeet Nations land and very happy guest here and um I am originally from Calgary Alberta I was born and raised there my parents are West Indian immigrants from Grenada they’re both from Grenada and came here the first wave of Caribbean immigrants back in the early 70s I’d like to say late 60s early 70s so yeah we’re kind of a Legacy Family to Calgary Alberta and um yeah that’s uh me in a nutshell a really quick nutshell okay so let’s get into it shall we so the first question I wanted to cover is really what is the history of Black History Month so really how did it start how has it evolved do we really need one or you know and what should we be doing during Black History Month should we be only looking back or is there more to it that’s a great question uh it’s funny because every year this comes up and I think it particularly came up last year when Kanye West was saying enough of black history we don’t need to look back anymore we need a black Futures month not a Black History Month um so it wasn’t always a month uh it started an African-American Carter G Woodson started it and it was a week uh and then it blossomed into a month and then different countries started celebrating it so Canada the UK um I believe Australia might I don’t think I’m 100 on that but different countries started celebrating it for the month of February um and February wasn’t chosen because it’s just the short end of the stick um so to speak the shortest month so they just threw February at us it does have significance uh for who founded it so um there is a reason for it being when it is um but yeah I I think there’s a case to be made for both um and uh I’m always a fan of History because I think it’s just essential to learn not only not have not to repeat bad things that or things that we’ve done in history that don’t serve us very well now but also to just be that thankful to just be grateful and remember who came before you and who paved away especially uh when you’re talking about a traumatized population um like the black diaspora it’s important to remember who actually you really sacrificed their lives for where we’re at today so I think it’s important to look back but also there’s a case to be made for looking you know ahead and and or in the present and seeing what black people are doing now that contribute to science or you know health or any kind of innovative field um what are we doing now and so there’s a there’s a case to be made for both but I think saying don’t look back is uh it is is not a message that um that I support for our people especially because a lot of us don’t know our history at all because we were cut off from it yeah I think that I really like everything you said there like I do like the forward movement and being able to look into the future but the other piece of so many don’t know the history right and that being important and that connection and Anchor Point being valuable and centering for a lot of people if you had one thing that you wanted to share with people that maybe push back on that that don’t want the History part what argument would you make or maybe argument as more aggressive than we would want to be there but like what what would you want them to connect to to understand the importance of that history uh well number one no other no other culture is uh are told not to look at their history we don’t say to we don’t say to Chinese people oh don’t look back we don’t say to South Asian people oh you don’t want to look back we don’t tell any other group that um and so I think that’s one thing I would ask is why why do you want black people not to look back is it because it’s painful for you if it’s too painful for you then that’s another thing and that’s something for you to unpack for yourself but I don’t think it’s something necessarily um like blanketly applies to the whole diaspora that no we shouldn’t look back yeah it makes me really think of kind of parallels with the indigenous Community um Kathleen and I are both in Canada and so we refer to this body of work as Truth and Reconciliation with the indigenous Community I’ve heard the word reparations moved a lot in the black community from a U.S perspective and so I’m hearing that it’s both it’s we look back we honor those who came for for black folks to honor the people who paved the road for them going forward and for for our us non-black folks what are we needing to honor in terms of Truth in terms of so that we can move forward in a place of Justice in a place of equity and so I guess what I’m hearing is Black History Month should be both yeah I mean it’s it’s important to I mean it is named Black History Month um so I think it is a special time for us to uh you know to reflect on the past um and mention mention of course what we’re doing now and what’s ahead of us but um yeah I think it’s a time for us to really sit with this is what came before us uh what were we doing before we were even enslaved what where where were we at what are our you know foundational heritages from Continental Africa and that’s really what I usually use this month this time for is um to look back and say well what what will we do what were we doing before we got here um and so yeah I really like to dig back and I’m very interested in you know um language and dress and architecture and and culture from which we’re we’re an ancient we’re an ancient people uh so there’s a lot to reflect on at this time of year yeah for sure I want to talk about what it means to be to have sorry to be a part of a marginalized identity at work and what that means and how that might look would you mind sharing a little bit of your thoughts on that sure um it shows up in a lot of different ways um I think we’re all familiar with the term microaggressions um so it shows up in these uh smaller more subtle ways a lot of the time overtly as well of course but a lot of the time it’s more subtle so it might be a comment about food you brought for lunch um it might be a co-worker asking you about your hair um oh you had it this way last week and now it’s this way or can I touch it or how do you do that what do you put in it um it can show up as people talking over you in meetings um or taking what um taking something an idea that you had and saying that it’s their idea and um you know all these little kinds of ways uh where it shows up it you know can show up in we’re finding there’s a lot of stats on pay gaps that a black woman earns 60 cents to what a white man earns on average so these things are starting to be Unearthed and they’re starting to show that there are real consequences that people pay for being black at work um that are you know kind of goes beyond irritants or or minor annoyance it has real implications in in people’s lives and so I’m just kind of thinking about that in terms of what that does to someone in the workplace and so as a black woman or as you know a black employee in an organization where these microaggressions are taking place and you’re kind of thinking you know I might want to go somewhere else but is it going to be the same in this new organization when we’re thinking about this how do we navigate that to really understand the truth of what’s Happening

    um yeah that’s uh that’s something that um like are you asking for how does the marginalized employee navigate that and impact that both I think both like how does the employer know that this is happening in their environment and then also for as a black employee how do you how do you manage that burden and how do you what do you do about it I guess is the is the is the question yeah um I think first an employer from that standpoint they have to create an environment of safety um so that people can come forward when something is bothering them um or when something more Insidious is happening um and that may indicate a systemic issue they won’t know because a lot of black employees feel like they’re they’ll face repercussions uh for coming forward they’ll just get labeled uh an upstart or a troublemaker and put back in their corner and so um I think that that safety aspect um that psychological safety aspect to The Knowing yes I can come forward and for the employer to educate themselves on these issues that black employees face we all have the same internet um so you know educate educating themselves is is good too because sometimes if you go to what I what I hear a lot is yes I can go to my leader that safety is there I I feel like they’ll they’ll be receptive and they’ll understand to a degree but they might not believe me or they might not know that um asking to touch my hair is a big deal and so they’ll be like oh we’ll do you know did you talk to her can you can you just and so then the onus is placed what back on um the person that’s faced the injury um to rectify the situation for a coffee have a conversation with them um and that’s not something everybody’s comfortable doing um so I think there needs to be real things that are in place that kick in when something like this happens a real policy or a real action plan um that uh you know can take that burden off of the marginalized employee and and um and for something to actually be done about it because a lot of people just don’t say anything because they’re like that nothing’s gonna happen anyway um so I’m just going to quietly quit and when I find something else um I’ll move on and yes I mean it can be a game of why would I leave because I’m just going to find the same thing wherever I go um it’s always been like that anywhere I’ve been um you know but you do pay that loyalty tax as well um so people just kind of you know navigate these things by making moves when maybe more money comes up or a different position comes up that maybe is better for their career um but yeah I think there is that level of apathy that why bother it’s just the same everywhere yeah and that’s like that’s really one of the reasons why we do what we do at the job disruptors is because we want to help employers have that mindset in terms of understanding the environment because they might not even notice the symptoms because the psychological safety isn’t there to begin with and they’re not coming forward people are not feeling safe to say these microaggressions are happening or you know even just the way we’re doing work the way we’ve set it up it’s it’s just not conducive to supporting black folks folks in that environment and I love that you um said that about putting the onus back on to the employee because I think as Leaders we’re always trying to motivate and coach and develop our employees into being you know Future Leaders and so part of that is we say okay well you need to give this feedback and here I’m going to coach you on how you can give that feedback and and exert your power or authority but when we do that with marginalized groups we are ignoring the invisible power dynamic between leaders and even peers that are not black so if there is that sort of white supremacy kind of mindset or behavior that is happening in the organization and you don’t feel safe even if like and so I can speak to even in my career um there have been cases where even um you know I I don’t want to share too much personal information from my experience in HR but okay let’s just say we’re a marginalized group was in a more senior position um receiving microaggressions from subordinates and and so I think it’s it’s important to say okay we’re looking at these hierarchies in the power structure but there are invisible power structures that are part of society that underpin that and so how are we how are we switching from coach or leader to Ally to to help make the the environment safe and and not put the onus back on the person who’s experiencing the microaggressions yeah I think um you’re not an ally because you took a workshop um that’s a progression and it’s a journey allyship is a journey and acknowledging where you’re at goes a long way with marginalized folks like if you just say hey I don’t understand why this is a problem but I’m going to educate myself on it because it’s obviously an issue for you and I want to make sure that you’re safe and that you’re comfortable I think just even a statement like that just honestly saying yes I’m the boss and I’m supposed to know but I don’t know um but I’m going to I’m going to educate myself and I’m going to find out how to help you but basically I believe you um I think there’s uh you know I I just even in my own language I’m trying to move away from saying lived experience to live reality because I think there’s um a lot to be said for for that in the sense you can’t deny someone’s reality but you can deny their experience because an experience could be relative and so I think the part that’s missing and that the part that leads to allyship is belief like when somebody comes to you and says something are you gaslighting are you saying you know are you sure are you we have been black our whole entire lives we’re sure there there’s no there’s rarely a time where we pull out um the the quote unquote race card arbitrarily like we know um so I think that’s that belief Factor uh goes a long way um and for for us to navigate certain things I think it’s um you know I really I really don’t know if I mean again being aware of placing the onus on somebody marginalized to navigate um it’s it’s just shifting and Shifting the culture is a leadership responsibility um and so you know and when people say things like well why is everything about race are you sure we didn’t make everything about race so I mean to make that clear as well is um I just want to show up and do my job you know I don’t want to have to navigate this stuff so I think just um you know yeah knowing who uh the burden of proof is on knowing who the onus is on to to to rectify wrongs or to shift culture is is a Leader’s job and and so I think that um putting that just in its proper context and placing it on the shoulders it should be on it’s a skill set um and I realize um you know for a lot of folks they haven’t ever talked about race in their life and in 2020 all of a sudden everyone it’s the Hot Topic um and not only marginalized folks are having this discussion now um so it’s new for a lot of people but it’s not new for us and so I think having that dialogue with each other is really important and being honest and brene brown talks about this a lot being vulnerable and folks saying hey I don’t get it and us saying I know you don’t get it but please listen to me and please believe me um I love that I think that believable part right Paramount foundational right just when I talk to people we talked a little bit about this last week right intention doesn’t equal impact so it doesn’t matter what your intention was if somebody tells you that something impacted them in a way believe them I mean like that’s the easiest thing that you can do and then remove yourself from it like oh I didn’t intend to do that that doesn’t matter that you didn’t intend to do it it had an impact and you’ve been given an olive branch and an opportunity to learn to grow and to do different and the other thing that I want to highlight when you said as a leader I should know but I don’t and I’m going to go educate myself if you make that statement do it you have to follow through on it like don’t just say it and then never do it because that will have way worse implications and ripple effects and just like highlighting you should be doing it anyway and if you say it make sure that you actually follow through on doing that because it is your responsibility as the leader to change and adjust culture and to educate yourself because you’re the one who’s setting the tone and whether you like it or not people are looking to you to set the tone if that’s uncomfortable I get it and yeah leadership position and often it could be that ego that’s getting in the way and so think about that for for anyone who’s listening if if this is uncomfortable work for you it could be that your leadership style is to be the fixer it could be that your leadership style is to always have the answers and so think about where that’s coming from and so it’s coming from a good place but just because it’s coming from a good place doesn’t mean it might not have a bad impact so as Leaders we need to be agile we need to be you know our style needs to suit the situation and the need and so I love Kathleen all the things you said be honest be vulnerable I believe you powerful statement and how do we create safety for you and and take some time to think about that because you might not have ever been asked that question before and so as a leader your employee may not have ever been asked that question before and so they may need some time to think about it because they’ve just been coping and they’ve been you know putting up boundaries reason they were like what I didn’t even think that this was ever anything you know that would be pitched to me and so be patient with that understand what safety looks like and to Kathleen’s Point start Shifting the culture and so I love that we’re having some comments come in so as you’re watching this if you have any questions please put them in any key takeaways that are standing out for you put those in the comments so um Christopher says he’s got to go but his key takeaway is belief love it and we have another user that says I created a piece of content about lived experience in regard to expanding our definitions of diversity and now I’m changing the wording to lived reality thank you for that all right and so um what are some of I think we already talked about some of the pitfalls like we talked about ego and not being vulnerable but what are maybe some of the other pitfalls that we haven’t talked about that we need to avoid when it comes to how we view Black Talent that’s a great question um I think it’s to remember that uh there’s not the black community there are black communities and whereas individual and varied um as anybody else we’re a republican we’re Democrat we’re you know we’re um we’re in the lgbtq community as well as being black we are disabled as well as being black so we’re um as varied and as um you know dynamic not one-dimensional as anybody else [Music] um and so I think in approaching uh every black employee with the same broad brush we all have different experiences we’re all from different countries with different cultures [Music] um so just uh allowing us to uh bring that into into a space um when you’re considering Black Talent um consider them uh as they are and and just as what they’re presenting and give them room for that um and not uh you know those those stereotypes and those biases that that creep in about what um a black uh perspective employee might want or need don’t assume that um and and just hear what hear from them these are my needs um this is what would make me happy at work this is what would make me feel feel fulfilled at work it’s it’s as varied as it is for any other group yeah I love that don’t make assumptions because I feel like stereotypes can go like even when they’re when we think they’re positive stereotypes right we think it’s a positive stereotype because we’re like all black people need help because they’re a marginalized group and all you might be thinking they all need a mentor they all need right and so if we come from this mindset of treating like if you said it’s black communities there are nuances within that and so you’re still like I think this is where where some people get tripped up with it it’s like you you it almost furthers that power Dynamic when we say okay you’re marginalized so when we start treating people that way we say okay we are going to think about race as a construct in the workplace and what that means and so now we’ve actually gone the other way and and have started creating behaviors that might you know where you might say okay you need help I’m going to assign you to this Mentor but did we ask whether this Mentor feels safe for them did we ask what their career goals are and what they want and so really treating them with that respect of of that you would any employee it’s it’s it’s still it’s still about good leadership and it’s not about making things you know feel like special treatment but being aware of your biases so that you’re you’re removing that barrier for folks is it do you think do you feel like that’s accurate to kind of what you said yeah yeah and and also to um you know like like I said just ask them what are what does success look like to you um what does that feel like for you and how can we support you in that and yeah I think just really not assuming that um you know somebody that’s uh that’s black in your organization is going to want with the next black person in your organization wants and um that you know I think the main thing too is to keep in mind about um Talent of color is that you know don’t expect us to show up like you expect white men to show up we’re going to show up differently and you know that’s where the stereotypes come in like because I I’m very soft-spoken actually I I’m not a kick the door down take up space kind of person um that’s not my comfort zone uh and I find that I have to actually navigate that um and it’s come back on me like oh you don’t you don’t you don’t speak um enough in meetings or you don’t I’m a listener and when I say something um I’m informed when I say that when I when I speak um I don’t like to just talk just to hear myself um but I find that’s a stereotype that’s come back on me a little bit and so just let us show up how we how we show up you know give us that space we’re not all going to show up the same way or a way that you you know like I said that’s more in line with um it with how mainstream uh society would like us to show up or recognize this oh this is how a black woman’s supposed to show up and you know it’s like no just just get to know me and let me show up as as best for me because that’s when I’ll do my best work yeah I love everything you’re saying there right like I’m a whole human in front of you and as a leader allowing your team members to be that whole human and I love what you said about just ask right it’s not that hard all of this work around and like oh if I do this this and this and attempting to make these wide policies when you could just have a kind conversation and you could just meet that person exactly where they are in the moment and allow them the space and ability to speak for themselves we talk a lot about empowering people at work and oh I want them to be empowered for this and empowered for that then Empower them to think for themselves by asking what they need and what they want and then believing them and doing your job as a leader to follow through on making those things happen and I know that we haven’t always had that as a normalization in the workplace of like oh asking what do you need to feel fulfilled what do you need to feel motivated or any of those things but if we’re shifting into a new center of leadership that’s human first like ask and then follow through like it seems a lot more simple to me but yeah I don’t know that this is why I have been pushed to the the outlying of leadership for a long time so I’m really glad that we’re moving to a human first Leadership Model but you were also talking about normalizations right and patterns and the systemic thing and I want to highlight the white supremacy in that and specifically the patriarchy white supremacy in that how do you think that that has shaped what we see as normalizations in the workplace and which ones would you want to push back on the most initially like almost like a domino that you can push over to make some big changes Ah that’s a great question um yeah I think a lot of our patterns are just old you know they’re just formed off of what is valued um in terms of output in terms of performance um in terms of like I said what do we think of when we think of a successful person you know um and moving towards like like for instance um bringing in those cultural values that people hold that might be more might resonate more with them like a lot of um marginalized folks are from more communal cultures they’re not from cultures that are as individualistic so um how do you speak to them in terms of you know team goals rather than individual individual goals um I think that kind of would speak to them more instead of yeah showing up as this this is about me this is about where I’m going in the organization this is about you know just me me I think there’s that really that really resonates with a lot of folks um that come from more communal situations where it’s like you know maybe you I don’t know maybe you have more open knowledge sharing and and and knowledge transfer and it’s not gate connect you know um and and maybe you think about ways to bring people along with you when you get a promotion like what does that look like um you know and so I think you know that that mentoring piece that’s a communal uh value that can be adopted you know how do we bring people along um job sharing is something that I’ve really come to to like and um you know how do we Shadow and job share and and and and share and bring folks along it’s it’s not um I mean that’s that’s a part of the white supremacist I find model is there’s only enough so much to go around there’s only so much power there’s only so much resources or only so much knowledge there’s only so much money there’s a so it’s uh it’s it’s it really becomes a hoarding situation where um sequestered and gate kept because if I share with you I’m giving up something for myself [Music] um you know I think that is a part of what really needs to change and what I’d like to see completely dismantled because it just winds up being um displaced that it does cause environments to be very psychologically unsafe for everyone you know when you think like you have to watch your back because you know somebody’s coming for your job or somebody is going to is working on tearing you down or I mean how does that feel going into that every day so and there’s really no need for it because it’s evidence shows that teams function better when you know that’s taken out of the equation um and so yeah I think that comp that high level of competition aspect um would would we would do well to get rid of that and and like how do we how do we you know Foster Talent nurture talent and and help people to thrive um in a less competitive way yeah I love everything you said about the scarcity mindset right like that’s not helpful for anybody and everything that you just talked about having that shift away from the scarcity mindset and more into the community modeling is helpful for everybody the the system that white supremacy has set up like it’s not good for anybody and so upholding it is just harming everyone so being able to dismantle that and move into that collaboration move into that teamwork move into we’re all here together and we can all solve the problems together like I don’t know we would become Unstoppable in a lot of ways I think it’s so hard because like we’ve got this sort of copy paste culture of okay so we’re starting a new business and what does that look like by virtue of the typical organizational structure that in itself creates a scarcity mindset because you have fewer positions of power at the top where we’ve got you know lots of entry level and I hear this a lot from my clients too because I think the communal aspect for women women of color of you know all sorts of intersections that we do value collaboration in feminine culture we are conditioned to be interdependent and so definitely more so in certain cultures than others but as a as a whole this has been proven to lead to more Innovation lead to more productivity but how can we do that differently how do we shift towards maybe a flatter structure and also just not looking at just the structure because I have seen and worked with organizations that have moved to a flatter structure but the behaviors are still very much hierarchical command and control behaviors so think about okay what are the behaviors we need as a company to include all of our employees but also what are those behaviors that are going to get us to thriving in the future in a new way it doesn’t have to be the tried or true and true you know sacrifice and you know scarcity and command and control we have evolved as a species we know better we can do better we don’t have to be working from that emotion no brain where we see everything as a dichotomy we can access our more our higher level thinking and and come up with Creative Solutions and so I love this conversation because I feel like it’s I mean it’s it benefits the black community but it benefits everyone right and I think that’s what we need to do a shift on leaders is um and one thing we talked about with Tony um last week from racial Equity insights was that Spotlight I forget what the other one was but the model of okay where are we putting the focus on in terms of the work so yes so can you speak to that Kathleen a bit because like I think you know we’ve got a lot of organizations that say oh no we have ergs we have you know this and that so how do we need to think about the work that needs to happen I think we need to I mean I I’m such a big fan of the internet maybe I shouldn’t be so much because I’m hearing about unhealthy it is but um eggs were once unhealthy too so you know how you use it

    ruining my life they’re so expensive right now yes but um I think that we need like when you talked about just going back to a second like when you talked about lateral structure and it can’t just be structure it has to actually manifest in behavior [Music] um yeah I think I think that’s something that is really important in terms of Shifting things um if I’m answering your question is that who did considered knowledgeable and why are they considered knowledgeable why why because uh somebody has a Masters or a PhD why are why is their opinion given more weight than somebody else’s who obviously has lived it yes and I think we even tend to do that in our own communities you know why should somebody listen to me uh more than somebody who’s actually gone through something you know because I have again uh markers of I have a degree I have markers of what is considered um criteria for being allowed in space in certain spaces um so I I think I don’t know if I’m answering your question no I think you are I love what you said that about how we give weight to people who have that degree or that standing and it kind of reminded me of something you said before because you said um you know we didn’t make everything about race like white supremacy as a culture has been like okay we I’m not white I don’t know why I’m saying we but whiteness because I mean whiteness as a construct we we’ve all kind of got a relationship with that and it has been about studying the other right where whiteness is centered and everyone else is an other and so I have this degree and I’ve studied all these cultures but it doesn’t matter that degree that you hold it will never give you the perspective of the lived experience and so when are we giving when are we waiting the the data and how are we looking at where that data is even coming from and we’re going to talk about that next week in terms of using data um on this anti-racism journey but really looking at it from a lens of why are we only rewarding you know this this sort of this mindset of elitism or whiteness centered in the work and so because when I said you know what do we do about the work I think that’s the thing whiteness needs to be centered as the work instead of instead of putting the onus on black folks or other marginalized groups yeah because I mean I think every marginalized person goes through this you knock yourself out trying to um you know like I said meet up check all the boxes uh degree um speak English a certain way um look a certain way dress a certain way mannerisms a certain way and um it still doesn’t matter at the end of the day you know because you still face what you face and it’s frustrating because you’re like I knocked myself out trying to show up as a white man and and and and still um and you know so I think that it speech Just speaks to also the communal aspect of how a lot of marginalized cultures function it’s not a lot of time it’s not the person with the degree that you go to for a perspective or for advice or for a level set it could be your auntie it could be an elder it could be somebody in the community that’s regarded as a knowledge keeper um and and so letting more of that in um you know would go a long way to understanding things and de-centering um de-centering that that white construct that Perfection aspect yeah you know I just find that that’s one thing that I love about when I Retreat back into my culture is uh I don’t have to be perfect yeah I can actually just you know I I’m I’m worthy of love I’m worthy of relationship I’m worthy of connection and I didn’t have to say something perfectly I didn’t have to show up perfectly yeah um in order to receive I mean the definition of perfect what does that mean this perfect mean is that by definition whiteness is that by definition like professionalism that’s centered around whiteness like where what does perfect mean and is it perfect if it’s inauthentic that’s kind of perfect it doesn’t exist yeah and so that’s the cruel irony of it because we’re all chasing something that doesn’t exist anyways you know um so you are going to knock yourself out and get burnt out and get frustrated and angry and all kind of exhaust your efap package or whatever you got going on because it’s not attainable it doesn’t exist so um yeah I think just divesting from that uh is is a really huge piece to moving forward in corporate cultures oh and I want to expand on that specifically right moving forward healing and creating better in the future so how do we move away from what we currently have the constructs that we currently have and moving more towards truth and reparations

    um I think we have to uh realize what actually it’s going to take and be willing to do it and that’s a scary place um I think um the needle was shifted for us in 2020 it was abruptly moved and that’s the place it needed to go um to be quite honest with you um but institutions are are they ready for that kind of bold shift no um for the most part no um so it will be more gradual but um what it really what it takes is is a big push because for from from a black standpoint um and James Baldwin says it perfectly is um what exactly am I supposed to keep waiting for um you know my my grandfather waited for it my father waited for it I’m waiting for it my children will be waiting for what exactly do you want us to keep waiting for

    um and so I think in in the workforce now we’ve never seen so many generations in it at once we’ve got even gen Alpha coming into the workforce now behind gen z um but yet we still have uh Gen X or folks like myself and Baby Boomers in leadership and there’s an expectation on with the younger worker that’s like I’d wait for what what exact why can’t you do this tomorrow um and so we owe them an explanation in that regard yeah because how how much more and how like how much more are we asking them to wait for and why and they want that answer yeah and you know what are you waiting for like what what is this like fork in the road that all of a sudden now we’re gonna turn and things are gonna be great like what is what is this Landmark that we’re all looking for and I love your I love your connecting the pandemic to this because the pandemic forced us into this communal mindset of we need to take care of one another and you felt that resistance and that was where it was like we can’t wait for this it’s happening now we have no choice and so how do we that’s the question that’s coming up for me now is how do we create the urgency how do we create the urgency without having to have you know some other world event happening like how do we how do we start doing that within our organizations yeah I think it’s um I I I mean I’m not a fan of elaborate business cases and I think too many business cases I think we lead with that foot in this work and we say well okay I’m not going to appeal directly to their heart and mind so I’m going to make a business case for the business cases have been proven 20 more uh teams are 20 more productive um when Dei is integrated into you know business practice that’s out there um I I think you know you’re not going to unless like I said unless you’re actually open and vulnerable and serious um and are seriously compensating people in your organization for doing this work whether they’re in official capacity or not um you have to be willing to spend money on it you have to be willing to say this is important to our organization we’re centering this work we’re integrating this work into hardcore business this is not seen as a Fluff social side piece of everybody it wouldn’t it be great if we all got along we’ve seen worldwide protest we’ve had a pandemic teach us this has to be done um and so I think it’s just that urgency um needs to be uh that urgency needs to be felt in terms of actual resources like the actual hardcore dollars you know um either one one little exercise I like to do is uh making something it’s like a reverse brainstorm I think it’s called and it’s making something worse anything you could think of human beings are fantastic at that anything you can think of that would make something absolutely the worst case scenario and then working back from that until you get to the best place um and I think if we think about where we’re headed and how if we keep going on this trajectory where that ends I think it’s very um desirable I think it becomes more desirable to say oh I don’t want to go there so um let me work with some more urgency and see how we can work back from this if you don’t have that expertise in your organization Outsource it yeah you know look at look outside um there’s a lot of people that want to contribute and they’re they’re perfectly willing and able to lend their voice to whatever it is that you need to get done in your organization so get creative and pull in some voices if you don’t have it um if you don’t have the budget for it you know you just don’t have that in your organization but all you got to do is look around the room and I ask that question who’s not here yeah do you need an elaborate business case yeah to that piece about Outsourcing because something came up to for me that was a potential risk of that how do you Outsource the work and still integrate the accountability and education because I think often what leaders do they say oh I care about this I’ve been told I need to invest here’s the training here’s another training I’m done I did my job so how do we Outsource it but still have that shifting culture that you’re speaking to um yeah I think don’t keep the outside person outside of of you know your goals and your vision um there’s a way you I mean Outsourcing is just they’re not a part of the company as in their title or their position or what have you they’re not a paid they’re not on the payroll in that way but um make them a part of your plan and and you know make them feel like their voice is essential in you getting where you need to go um and that again speaks to structure and um you know who’s allowed to have a voice because that person can be a great conduit between Community Voices that you need to hear maybe who’s even accessing your services and um having that expertise and training to get you where you need to be um so yeah because they’re they’re outside and you’re Outsourcing it doesn’t mean they have to remain on the periphery of what you’re doing

    so Outsourcing but bringing them in making sure that they’re part of the organization understanding truly what your gaps are and making sure they they have exposure to to the reality yeah like don’t get don’t gatekeep make sure they have access to reports they need to have or company history or you know let them in in that way and give them access to what they need to have access to to help you solve your problem and what I heard in that is like partnering with them like choosing a partner to help and support and move forward because yeah you don’t know what you don’t know and so having an outsourced resource that has been doing the work is in the know can partner with you to help yeah open up doors it can be in good move sometimes as well because um it depends on the level of uh intensity or what’s going on in your organization sometimes there’s horror stories where the environment is just so intense that anybody doing this work inside might face their own repercussions or backlash for doing it um so it’s not always a you know quite often it can be a good idea to have somebody that’s not a part of that culture um and doesn’t have you know that that won’t face those repercussions in the same way um to come in and be a neutral kind of uh party to the to the work it’s kind of some some in some cases you need somebody that’s as much a mediator as a neutral mediator as much as a facilitator hmm yeah I love that a neutral mediator and to just bring them in and make them part of the process because I think it’s interesting because I feel like like there it is a process to even partner with someone right because it’s you don’t know all of your gaps yet they don’t know all of your gaps yet and I think so the risk is when we jump to oh we got to do something so I think we want to have the urgency but not urgency to just run out there for any sort of training or any sort of performative action if you didn’t listen last week we go into detail on that episode about what that means to be performative and so if we’re really being authentic that means truly understanding your gaps as well and making sure that the interventions and the people that you bring in are able to to get give you the solutions to create that shift because that’s a huge change management piece and I think leaders who have been like seasoned leaders understand that anytime you create any change you know even when there isn’t like these invisible forces against you it’s still it’s still there’s going to be resistance and so you need to have urgency you need to have the vision you need to understand the gaps you need to partner you need to put money toward this because if your skin is not in the game like you’re not going to you’re not going to stay the course and you’re not going to start to see that shift it’s not going to work and that’s when you start hearing oh gei doesn’t work well how much money did you put into it did you invest if you can’t expect people to work magic in your organization and you don’t give them a budget yeah and sometimes and sometimes it is a budget and then the training re-traumatizes marginalized folks because it’s really it’s not it’s not it and so I mean we’ve got three people here who can help you figure that out and so reach out to us if you’re unsure because you know we want to make sure that the interventions that you choose are really going to work absolutely really and you really want to do it and you know it’s going to be difficult yeah yeah it’s okay we’ll we’ll hold your hand through out we’re here to support all the way through but anything anything worth doing is challenging yes and and it’s and it’s worth it’s it’s worth the effort it’s something to be proud of and it’s something that really stands out in today’s world it wasn’t it wasn’t valued as much in society like I I still think you know the values are rooted in white supremacy and patriarchy but it’s starting to shift we’re starting to see that Tipping Point I think especially with Gen Z you see that like they like to your point Kathleen they’re like what are we waiting for why like what like if we keep waiting it’s never gonna happen it’s becoming a business necessity like there isn’t a choice anymore right like there isn’t and so like that’s nice because they will be forced into it but you can just do it you can just volunteer you don’t have to wait until you are absolutely forced to do it I think just engage in the work yeah so we only have four minutes left and I want to be mindful I want to hear a little bit about Kathleen the book that is coming out that you’re writing tell us more about that yes um it’s uh coming out this year um it’s called hard talk getting good at diversity and inclusion and it’s a part of divesting from that Perfection so um I shot this around with uh people that I bounce creative ideas off of and they said well what about mastering uh diversity and inclusion and I said I’m I don’t know about you and maybe it’s the pandemic maybe it’s just exhaustion I’m done I’m done mastering things um and so I I just thought what if we just start with the basics because I found a lot of people not understanding basic terminology um not understanding how things play out on a very ground level and so we’re trying to have all these Advanced discussions and interventions and workshops and yet we’re not understanding simple things um and so a part of that urgency that we were just talking about is is great but at the same time it’s causing people to dive in head first and then hit hit their head in the bottom of the uh yeah um so how do we actually start to have these conversations in a more uh thoughtful um and respectful Progressive manner rather than just diving into uh kind of be performative so oh yes that’s what the book is about I love that let me know when it’s out because I will definitely read it and I feel like that is a trap that I fall into because when you’ve been close to this space or close to this work there’s an unintentional gatekeeping of Dei yeah as well like even just saying Dei like Dei stands for diversity equity and inclusions some people call it EDI some people call it dive some people like it’s it’s it I love that like just really getting to the basic terminology the where do I start and divesting from that Perfection because that’s probably going to move the dial more than a lot of these other things that seem more complex yeah yeah a lot of people don’t want to do something because they expect they have to show up perfectly and so they don’t even start mm-hmm yes and I think that also comes from that patriarchal mindset of you know not being it’s not a safe space to make mistakes and so we’d rather not try we’d rather not go there we’d rather just focus on what we’re good at instead of getting uncomfortable yeah exactly well in our last few minutes I want to invite anybody who is listening to this if you have a comment or a question add it into the comments wherever you’re watching it whether you’re on Facebook LinkedIn or YouTube we do get notifications we will come back and respond to them uh even if you are watching this after the fact we still see those comments coming through and we can continue to generate really helpful powerful conversation in this right the conversations and the basics and understanding and just reach out because we definitely want to respond um we will have a tip jar coming for Kathleen chill provide us with a link because no those are the tips are sorry so so Kathleen so we we mentioned on the last episode of her transparency we don’t have the budget yet to pay our speakers and we do not want to be part of the problem of not paying people in this space for doing the work so Kathleen has um given us a link to donate to her favorite charity she’s on the chair of the board at odihi foundation and so we’ll put the link in the comments and you can make a donation so if you found value out of this conversation please donate to Odi yes thank you for the correction and no we’re taking that over I appreciate it yes uh other pieces uh if you are listening to this on uh our podcast make sure that you follow and rate us so that more people can find it make sure that you share it out with anybody who you think would find this valuable as well we want to reach as many people as possible and if your company is in a moment where they’re ready to do the work and needing help you can reach out to us at the disruptors at jobdisruptors.com we are offering a free Dei evaluation right now as well as Kathleen who is a Dei specialist and either one of us is more than happy to help and support you along those those lines yeah and so you can follow Kathleen on Tick Tock and Instagram her handle is at KMJ diversity I will put it the link in the comments as well after this there is also a link in the comments to our Black History Month resource that we created um Kathleen’s links are actually in there as well also please don’t forget to get that download that’s something that you can have as the work that you need to do as an individual or as a leader have that saved not just for black history month but go back to it from time to time to really you know have a place where you can kind of do a deep dive and and follow you know whatever it is that you feel like you need most In This Moment absolutely thank you everybody for joining us and we’ll see you next week where we talk about bias in bias out what is Equitable data use look like so thank you all we’ll see you soon thanks Kathleen thank you

    admin@jobdisruptors.com






  • What Are Inclusive Hiring Practices & How to Start

    What Are Inclusive Hiring Practices & How to Start


    Transcript

    all right we’re live welcome I am Jasleen I am co-founder of the disruptors and I’m a career coach for women in Tech and I also have an HR background and so which really lends itself to the conversation we’re having today on inclusive hiring practices and I’ll pass it over to Alexandria to introduce yourself thanks Joseline I am Alexandra I am the other co-founder of the disruptors uh my background originally comes out of the therapy space I pivoted into Tech with felling face first into it and now I am an executive coach for women in Tech this is uh inclusive hiring is definitely a subject that is near and dear to my heart and I think it’s super super important to recognize whether you have inclusive hiring practices or not so I’m super excited to have this chat with you today Jesse awesome so let’s jump into the question so I guess today we’re really we want to highlight all the red flags for you because this is such a meaty topic we could really go down so many lanes but we wanted to really simplify it into something that’s actionable for you so we’re really just highlighting five of the red flags yeah but before we do that I think I actually want us to Define what an inclusive hiring practice is so how would you define that jesleen yeah so it’s really important to Define it because I think sometimes we think we have an inclusive hiring practice when we don’t and I wanted to First share a stat with you to kind of highlight that so this study came out of Harvard and they did a study with recruiters who were raiding stem candidates and basically uh women and bipod candidates were rated significantly lower than white men so even if the credentials were the same and so all of it’s important to know that all these recruiters self-identified as people who were actively involved in diversity Recruitment and so just to give you insight into that study um basically if you were a woman or bypoc to get the same rating as a white man with a 3.7 GPA you had to have a 4.0 GPA as well well as when they looked at really Elite internships that they had it had a 50 percent higher rating for the white men than it did for bypoc or women candidates so really when we’re defining inclusive hiring it’s really important um you know in general it’s really about having a hiring practice that’s designed to create an equitable and inclusive experience from recruitment to offer to level the playing field for all candidates but you really want to this is a very general vague definition so you really want to do the work to Define how you’re going to measure that yourself as you’re going through this how will you know you know where are you now where are the gaps and as we’re talking through these red flags I think it will help you kind of think about how you might Define that so really go back and Define that for yourself um and we also want to talk about why should you even care about this like most of you if you’re tuning in today you probably do care about this but if you don’t um Alexandria what do you think why should we really care about inclusive hiring I think there’s a lot of reasons why we should care but if we’re just focusing in on the business reasons why you should care if you have an inclusive hiring practice then that allows you to actually create more diverse teams and it’s been proven that more diverse teams increase Innovation they increase profitability they increase sustainability of the company as a whole so if you are just focused in on I don’t know whatever problem it is that you’re solving but you have a homeo genius team you’re only going to be able to solve that problem with the experiences brought to you by that team and the thoughts that are brought to you by that team but if you can have diversity in that thought and diversity of background and experience and education and all of those different pieces then you can expand out your solution which means that you have better Solutions and you can move faster than if you’re just stuck in the same Echo chamber of thought so it makes good business sense to have an inclusive hiring practice because that’s how you actually get to diverse teams which has been proven time and time again to be good for business awesome so it’s not just a nice thing to do it’s actually good for your business if your Workforce really represents your customer base you’re going to be able to connect a market to them better so and there’s a lot of research on this that proves that as well as as Alexandria spoke to um and also I just wanted to highlight a call to action for you and I think we’ll we’ll put this in the comments I also wrote a blog post by the way um so that’s on the disrupters website so if you don’t want to take notes as we’re going through this you don’t have to because all of this is going to be in that blog post I actually didn’t put this in there but I wanna I probably will go and edit and add this is the implicit association test I really I know I shared this with you Alexandria because I had an icky icky feeling when I took this test because as someone who’s been actively doing the work I still have biases and that was like a real light bulb moment for me because I took this test probably 10 years ago and I took it again um I think it was the same test but the results were very similar and there’s so there’s different um there’s different biases that you can test whether it’s light skin dark skin gender all of these sorts of tests so you can kind of go through and think about who are you really trying to recruit and and and I challenge you to take that test for yourself and see what your results are and not in a way to feel guilty about it or shameful about it but just to kind of understand that even if you’ve been actively doing this work like us you still are conditioned by Society by the images we see by the stereotypes everything and so it’s it’s not about eliminating bias it’s about highlighting this and understanding where it is so you can build an inclusive hiring system to mitigate any sort of decisions that are made from by is and not from actually assessing the quality of the candidate yeah absolutely I definitely want to Echo everything that you just said because checking your bias is a huge piece of this work and I really appreciate that you point out that even you and I who have been doing this work for a long time it still exists we still have work to do and so by just admitting that bias is a thing because that’s how our brains work and we are generalizers and pattern Seekers we have to continuously draw attention to the work and and checking those biases so that they become aware I mean if you’re part of the marginalized group that you’re trying to recruit and so if you have like you can still have internalized racism internalize misogyny internalize homophobia all the isms right and so it’s important to know that because you might be even assessing people that do look and sound similar to you you may be um you may be assessing them with a harsher lens and you may be applying that to yourself too so I feel like when you do this work it it’s really liberating as well because you learn to be easier on yourself um but that being said let’s jump into the red flag shall we yeah we’ll just plug that we are going to dive a little bit deeper into bias next month so make sure you keep an eye out on our calendar for that because we’re going to talk very specifically about some biases that show up with ease unfortunately in the tech world and so we’ll dive into those and help you uncover some of those next month um but yeah let’s talk about the red flag so what is the first red flag that you would say that companies need to check for to see if they have inclusive hiring practices or not yeah so the first one is pretty obvious it’s diverse candidates are not applying and so this is why I said it’s really important to Define what inclusive hiring is for you because you need to understand what is the diversity you’re looking for and so if you’re not seeing those candidates you have to think about why aren’t they applying is it that you don’t have representation on your website or your marketing materials or on your social Channel is it in the job description is it the language that you’re using and there’s a lot of research on this and in the blog post I talk about some of the words that will um will might hinder someone who is underrepresented from applying um and we can help you with this as well because we help with crafting the job description and then also um you know just looking at how you’re defining that as a whole on your website and your vision statement your mission statement all the value signals that are are there in the language so really going through all of your branding with a fine-tooth comb with a thinking partner with someone who has this sort of lens and really understanding how others are viewing your company because it’s chances are if diverse candidates aren’t applying diverse customers might not also be buying so it’s really important to make that connection there’s the next red flag Do You Wanna or did you have anything else to say about that well so I want to say that not only can we help you with that if you’re not ready to hire some Dei Consultants or do that but you want to kind of get an idea of like okay what’s going on with our job descriptions there are tools that you can use online textio is a great one to help you get to a gender neutral language space and I really want to highlight how important the choice of language is in your job descriptions on your website when you’re talking to people because that’s one of the places that bias shows up and so we don’t even necessarily think about it because we’re so used to using certain words or nomenclature and it just becomes normalized that you don’t realize the effect it actually has so if your job descriptions are heavy masculine it’s going to deter women identifying people from applying for the jobs and that’s an easy change right you just shift some of the language that you’re using and you’re conveying the same idea but in a more inclusive way so look out for some tools that can help you if you aren’t ready to hire Consultants but if you do need the extra help and you want to have that you know people like us can definitely help that but moving on to the next flag so let’s just say you have diverse candidates who are applying but your candidates are dropping off in the interview process specifically if they’re dropping off very early like after the first interview or so they remove themselves from the candidacy pool that’s a huge huge red flag that means that something is happening in your interview process that’s deterring them from wanting to continue so it could be in your job description it could be in the interviews themselves how you gave them instructions on the interviews what are some other thoughts you have Jasleen about why candidates would be dropping off after that first round I’m gonna hold my thought on this one because it’s connected to one of our other red flags but I don’t want to go I don’t want to go there yet but you really need to look at everything like how how you’re structuring the interview questions who you’re bringing into the like you said the interview panel is diverse who are you bringing in and how much diversity training do they have in terms of like really truly understanding it not just how a lot of people understand it as a buzzword and we don’t want to exclude people yes but how are we really you know using a lot of cultural signals that are off-putting and this even goes back to the language in the job description but you know saying things like we’re like a family here or you know that’s like a common one where people say okay so basically I have to sacrifice my whole life to work at this company or you know we’re like a startup so that might be a signal that they’re gonna try to you know lowball me on an offer and so this is actually really relevant not just for your diverse employees but for all of your candidates but when you’re looking at diverse candidates if you’re if you’re used to being marginalized and you’re used to reading these signals you’re going to pick up on them faster than someone else might because someone else might be used to you know a little a little bit of a sense of entitlement that they know that what they’re going to get is fair so really always looking at it from that lens yeah I think that’s really important to highlight is people who have been historically marginalized and the patterns that they look out for to keep themselves safe you may not even realize your signaling are true in your culture because you haven’t been active in making sure that you’ve changed them and so while you may have the intention to not exclude if you are not actively working towards including and there’s bias there and there’s practices that are excluding because you haven’t been intentional about it you have to be intentional this is active work yeah and like and going back to that business case for Dei as well when you’re de-centering yourself in the hiring process you’re de-centering yourself in everything you do and so you know we’ve I think I’ve shared on on the page yesterday a lot of Dei is being defunded right now and so this is an opportunity first of all I mean we could talk about that and why that’s awful because of the commitments that were made and people are going back on that but it is also an opportunity to understand that you know Dei starts with you it’s about the inner work it should always be happening it’s not something we’re Outsourcing anyways we we partner with people to help us understand our biases and help us ask the right questions and again the same questions that are going to help you really thrive in your business as well well anything that goes back to some of the things that you’ve talked about too with Dei only matters when it’s hard right otherwise it’s performative and checking the box like it’s active work that never stops and so the times when it’s hard is when it matters the most because that’s how you get through to the other side right like right now it’s survival mode for a lot of companies well you need that Innovation you need that influx of thought and difference to be able to get you through this space that’s hard right now and so not dedicating yourself to the Dei work you’re just harming your business and everybody else who’s still in this with you and so expanding the work in Dei and continuing to invest in it is going to be what helps you move your business forward and get through this recession that a lot of companies are feeling the weight of it’s how you build resilience with your business too because when you say Dei is hard you know it is her it can be hard when you start but it’s like a muscle that you build right and so we’re here to help people build that muscle because when you’re really looking at everything through a lens of inclusion and you’re building that muscle eventually it will become easier so when you see a lot of these businesses like going through the pr crisis right going through the you know financial crisis this kind of muscle of inclusion it helps you with so many aspects it helps you with accountability it helps you with because when you’re people focused like and a lot of tech companies to thrive you really do need to be people focused and you need to be anticipating the needs of people today and in the future and so again it’s hard work but as you build this muscle it becomes a more ingrained part of your culture and way of being and make and it helps you make Better Business decisions and I want to highlight everything you just said like it’s a muscle right it grows just like any other skill that you’re working on they all require intention and work but then you grow and you become better and it becomes like second nature and so it’s like Maya Angelou says like once you know better do better when we’re in that place now we have the ability to know better and so we have the ability to do better which creates a better world for everybody and that’s the argument that we make all the time for why not just tech industry but all Industries should be human first we are always human that’s not going to change we don’t clock in and become something else and so prioritizing the human element is what will allow us to all Thrive totally it’s a muscle you build you’ll always still have blind spots but the muscle is in understanding how to spot spot the blind spots how to ask the right questions and again I I think I’ve told I’ve kind of sold that idea of the return on investment for the business as well because those thoughtful questions that inclusion lens helps you include everyone and wants everyone to be a part of your business and so I’ll move on to the next red flag and this one’s a bit controversial because um you kind of have to think about this through a critical lens and so the red flag is relying heavily on employee referral programs and so if you’re a recruiter watching this or if you’re involved in this space you you know that the data is clear that if you have an Erp program is going to reduce your recruitment costs you’re going to have a higher likelihood of offer accepted you’re going to have higher retention rates higher likelihood that you’re getting a qualified candidate so we’re not saying to stop uh all erps we’re not saying that at all but if your company is in a place where you’re already lacking diversity most of the people are going to recruit people that are more similar to themselves and so which is okay if they’re a good worker and you want to be recruiting those same skills but that could unintentionally be limiting um access for underrepresented groups to get into the company so it’s really about expanding your sourcing options and so at disruptors we also provide um Hands-On sourcing where we will work with you in terms of getting you a qualified and diverse candidate um and also formalizing your Erp formalizing that employee referral program with an educational lens on diversity equity and inclusion so your employees are really understanding why it’s valuable to the company and how they can think critically as well about who they’re referring and how they might expand in terms of where who they’re um whose names they’re putting forward for roles yeah I agree the employee referral can be great it’s an area of caution because people are pulling in from their own networks and so being able to even think critically about what is your own network even look like if you are an individual contributor and you are starting to not see diversity in a company that you work for and you’ve referred people in starting to think what does my own network look like and am I diversifying my own network so that I personally can grow another area of opportunity even if you aren’t on the hiring committee you aren’t in leadership any of those things you think this doesn’t apply it still does cautioning yeah and I think for small businesses like that can be your strength a lot of people that’s how they get their business off the ground and raise money and and get the word out there’s through their networks but this is now just taking it to the next level of saying okay now I’m it’s just like when you think about expanding into new markets right it’s really just how are you now this is how you got here it’s not about shame or blame or any of those things if your organization looks really white or if it looks really masculine that’s okay but recognizing okay that’s the strength that got you here now how are you expanding how are you really expanding those Networks and that moves us into the other red flag that we’re going to talk about your interviews are informal or highly feeling based and that’s a red flag for a lot of reasons right when it’s informal tons of bias gets to be entered into the equation and the feelings base those aren’t measurable or quantifiable and again bias is rampant in those areas right when you’re just like oh they don’t feel like a salesperson what does that mean right like what are you actually noticing and is it measurable or is that biased talking do they just not look like what your normalization view of what a salesperson looks like because if it that’s the case that’s bias and it’s an opportunity to check it and to adjust it so how would you suggest if they have informal interview practices how would they solve that so yeah you really want to have a structured interview and you want to make sure the questions that you’re asking are open-ended questions that allow people to expand you want to make sure those questions are tied to in the HR world we called it a bona fide occupational requirements it’s something that they really need to do to be able to do the job and when you are looking at culture fit it’s really important to understand when you’re you’re putting too much emphasis on culture fit and why you’re putting an emphasis on culture fit and how the culture fit criteria might be excluding underrepresented groups right so if you’re an organization that likes to go to sporting events on the weekends and you’re talking about that and you’re like oh this person doesn’t really feel like someone we can I’ve heard recruiters even say that like or or maybe not official recruiters but people who who are hiring into the business saying can I go for a beer with this person after work right so who might you be excluding like from certain cultures that maybe that isn’t what they do and so really thinking about okay is my interview structured and am I following the same process for every candidate how am I assessing that criteria how am I making sure that I’m filtering out the bias and really focused on can this person do the job that’s key because I think when we talk about Dei there’s this there’s this sort of misconception that we’re saying let’s lower the bar for diverse candidates we are not lowering the bar we are leveling or raising the playing field uh is how I would look at it we’re really raising the playing field so that your company can Thrive and really because like like you said at the beginning like there is a research shows a direct correlation between high-skilled qualified diverse talent and an increased level in Innovation and economic performance so it’s really shifting our mindset to these structure questions are not just to make you know they’re not just fluff just to appear like we’re doing the right thing it’s really about raising the playing field and raising the level of your business yeah the pieces I want to add there the making sure you have the same interview process includes the same interview questions if you are asking all the candidates the same questions then you get the same framing in response so you can actually compare them as Apples to Apples if you don’t ask the same questions then you don’t actually have grounds for comparison because you’re trying to take different responses from different things having the interview questions ahead of time also helps you to really hone in on what are we trying to get from this question so it also helps when you go through the review process of candidates did we actually get the information we needed are we making an informed decision because we ask the questions to actually tell us what we need to know there’s all kinds of research into how you ask questions in the framing and the responses that you’re going to get back but having set inclusive interview questions is a big way that you can level the play raise the playing field but also get the information that you need so you can make more effective hiring decisions and then I want to add the piece with the culture fit that we’ve been talking about recently and not even interviewing for the culture fit because that’s again creating more homeo genius teams but the culture ad because you can only think in the ways that you can think in the experience that you have so what could this person add to your culture how could they shift it in a way that would be helpful or beneficial or challenge you in some way as a team so that you can grow growth doesn’t happen in the comfort zone it happens at the edge so what could they add to the culture and do you need that and being aware of the shortfalls of the culture that you currently have absolutely that’s that’s a good point it’s not about culture fit it’s about culture ad and I also want to add to this because you know we’ve been talking about like structured questions but even looking at your notes in the interview in terms of the structure of the notes you’re taking and so I’ll give you an example I coach a lot of women in Tech who are in leadership or aspire to leadership and a lot of the feedback they get and research backs this up too is based on style and so it’s like she doesn’t have leadership presence or she comes across as too aggressive right where men will get actionable feedback where it’s this person you know he’s really great but he really needs to learn this technical skill so it’s something that they can take and actually action where sometimes for women it’s really again a cultural thing where it’s it’s we are allowed to have masculine traits but only within a narrow band of accepted behaviors and so really paying attention to the nodes and comparing that to your you know the white versus bypoc the women versus the men and really looking at the notes that you’re taking and how that might be seen through a different lens which is the importance of having diverse interview panels and being able to have if you have diversity in your interview panel you also have the opportunity to check one another’s bias in that moment and like ask questions like what do you mean she was too aggressive and then you can have a real conversation about what they’re intending on saying there and actually get to something measurable or something actionable versus just sitting in your own Echo chamber and so that’s why panels are always recommended as well and the more diverse you can make the panel the better because then you have multiple views and different biases that can be checked against one another yeah and also checking to make sure that you know it again it’s not performative just because you have a diverse panel doesn’t mean that everyone has the same level of Dei competence so some again to my point about the internalized isms right and so just because someone is diverse doesn’t mean that they’re not also looking at it through that lens so it’s important to think about it through all of these steps that we we talk about because yeah diversity representation yes it’s it’s great because it’s giving a value signal to that candidate but if the the men in that panel are over speaking over the women or you know not listening to some of the concerns or if there’s internalized uh you know misogyny or racism happening within the team that also needs to be checked in a way in a very mindful way because you can’t you everyone has different experiences so even within an underrepresented group you’re not a monolith it’s that that group is not a monolith and so understanding the nuances and making sure again it’s not just about you’re doing one thing to say oh yeah we’re we’ve got to cover because we have a diverse panel but really looking at it again from the attraction and recruitment all all the way through offer and onboarding and retention yeah absolutely which I think leads us to our last red flag that we’re going to talk about today and so before I have jesling talk about that one if anybody watching has any questions or comments please and we’ll answer those questions uh go ahead Jasleen what is our last Red Flag we want to talk about the last one that’s one I I kind of I wanted to jump to talking about this one before when we’re talking about candidates dropping off in the interview and so sometimes that could be because of this red flag which is that your selection process is over complicated and so I have scoured you know the internet and academic journals for for proof that having multiple steps actually produces a qual a better quality candidate and there’s no proof of this um and so what it ends up doing is the more steps you have the more time it takes the more you’re introducing bias because within every step there’s going to be and so if you think about it as adding layers and layers of bias for the sake of what because um you know I think sometimes people think no this person needs to meet everyone on the team when you have that mentality what you’re really thinking is everyone has to like this person right and so often First Impressions when it and again when we go into this series of bias um you know I I think we’re doing this in January yes I’m biased so when we when we go into bias we’ll we’ll speak to this on a deeper level but similar to me bias is is one of them and so we are going to gravitate toward people who remind us of ourselves and so the more you’re like okay we have to meet everyone on the team that’s like okay do we like this person AKA are they similar to us and also from a qualification standpoint there isn’t a isn’t really a lot of justification and so people often will say okay you have to do this take home assignment you have to do a technical interview a behavioral based interview and then you know it gets into five six seven rounds where then for that candidate applying for a job becomes a full-time job and so again like when when we talk about candidates dropping off this is another this is another way that this can happen and so how are you really improving the candidate experience so that you’re not only just losing your diverse talent because you’re losing all your top talent if it’s cumbersome if you’re really making people jump through hoops that’s a signal to them especially if you’re a good candidate that why am I working so hard I know why am I working so hard to get into this company this is probably just a sign of things to come and I tell this to my clients that you’re probably going to have to be jumping through hoops to get a promotion to you know get sort any other sort of career advancing opportunity to get people to take you seriously so really think about simplifying that process making sure everything is tied to relevant knowledge skills and abilities and place a lower emphasis on the subjective criteria absolutely and I think like I want to call out the technical interview that’s a very common thing in the tech industry depending on the position that you’re in and there is a level of necessity to it so we aren’t saying that you don’t have technical interviews but what does your technical interview entail uh how can you create more inclusivity in it and making it so it’s more accessible and so it’s not getting rid of it necessarily it’s just making sure have you checked in with your process and is there a reason that is directly correlated to quantifiable skills that you can draw that to was it just that you do it because everybody else is doing it or is there a real reason and you can measure the the results that you’re getting out of it and thinking about the amount of interviews that you have and how cumbersome that could be to somebody who’s applying for jobs are you allowing remote versus requiring in person there’s a lot of different ways that you can make interviewing simple and more accessible for more people and keeping in mind what kind of gatekeeping are you doing by not making them accessible and that’s one of the ways we’re trying to disrupt this is by saying you know we we work with Partners the qualathons with tech check where candidates are upskilling or or are doing technical projects where we can really vet these candidates to to prove that they have the ability and the technical know-how to do the job and that way if they’re if you’re working with these organizations the candidates only having to go through these kind of things once and so that it’s validated and then you don’t have to and then also is going to save you a lot of money and it’s going to save you time and it’s going to help you then Focus those resources on bringing that employee on board having a proper training and onboarding process getting them up to speed faster it just makes sense like it’s going to save like hundreds of thousands of dollars for your business in the long run if it if you’re reducing your recruitment costs and you’re able to get your employee up to speed faster and delivering results and adding value to the business faster and I want to call out some attention to that too right like the small and medium-sized businesses they there’s a lot of emphasis on we need qualified candidates who can just like hit the ground running and that’s great and I understand like why you would want and need that right business doesn’t stop moving and being aware that all jobs all Industries there’s a learning curve your company is different than any other company that they’ve worked at before there is still going to be a learning curve and while you can have like base skills right if you’re hiring for an I.T position like they need to know what servers are and how they operate and networking or whatever it is that’s required in their I.T position and there’s still going to be a learning curve of your processes your systems your servers and so being more open to the learning space and how can you with your onboarding process create that on-ramp that’s as easy as possible to go up are you actually providing mentoring are you actually providing training are you setting that person coming onto your company brand new for Success yep just learning the company acronyms can take months you know like like just getting up to speed with the acronyms and the lingo that they’re using and they’re like oh we called it this at my last company or you’re new to the corporate world and you know it’s just it’s it’s a new language you’re learning and so it just it really simplifying it is better for everyone and so I used to actually work in the onboarding department and oh my gosh sometimes it was just like getting the computer ordered and getting everything that the person needed and like all of the logistical components it it costs a lot of money it takes a lot of time and so yeah we want you to get as qualified of a of a candidate as you can we want to make sure that you’re bringing in diverse Talent we want to make sure that your business is thriving and doing in it in a way that’s cost effective absolutely yeah so we don’t have any comments happening but I want to go back over and just quick review of the red flag and then like one thing that can be done to look at it so the first red flag diverse candidates aren’t even applying your first place to look is going to be in your job descriptions and how are you representing your company on the face as a company that diverse Talent would want to apply for yep and then the next red flag is the candidates are dropping off in the first interview and so what you can do here is audit your applicant Tracking System look for the built-in bias and make sure you’re recruiting a diverse interview panel the next one is you are relying very heavily on an employee referral program and you don’t have a diverse talent pool already in your company that’s a red flag because it is potentially going to just continue with having not diverse talent coming into the pipeline so reviewing and formalizing your employee review process or referral process excuse me as well as educating your employees on diversity and checking bias so that they can expand their own networks and bring in more diverse Talent through the referral program yeah and the fourth red flag is your interviews are feelings based or very informal conversational and so what you can do about that is make sure that you have a structured consistent interview make sure all the questions are tied to a legitimate knowledge skill or ability open-ended but also a structured way of taking in the information and comparing Apples to Apples again diverse interview panel is going to help you with this as well and the last one your selection process or your interview process is over complicated so taking a look at your entire interview and selection process and you have opportunities to simplify it is every piece of your process actually required and directly connectable to a thing that you need from the interview process to make sure that you have a qualified candidate at the end of your selection process and I want to mention too um so we’re talking a lot about data and structure in the recruitment process and so we have a partner called teamable who helped immensely in this space and so we will be talking to them is it next week sorry February in February okay so they’re going to come on with us in February but I invite you to go and check out their website and look at what they have to offer as well and also DM us talk to us if you need help creating a standard process because we help more than with just this aspect we really look at your entire Dei strategy help you understand the gaps not in a way that’s overwhelming but in a way that we’re looking at low hanging fruit first looking at a way at a way that is strategic tied to your business outcomes that you want to see as well as you know your your Market your talent will really strategizing this from um from your perspective and your needs so please do reach out to us there’s also a form um that will invite you to fill out so if you want to um if you’re an inclusive employer you want to be an inclusive employer you’re hiring Tech Talent go to the job to stop jobdisruptors.com website and you want to complete the form you want to click on I’m hiring complete that form and when you do that you’re going to get a free Dei evaluation either from Alexandria or myself where you will have some quick actionable steps and a really good idea of where you are and what work needs to be done and I think we have a question coming in as well leader in Tech do you have suggestions on how to diversify my network yeah that’s a great question so diversifying your network I would say always starts with looking at who is in your network right now and then you can ask within your network hey do you know anybody that would be interesting for me to talk to to expand my area of knowledge and like being specific in whatever of knowledge that you’re trying to expand but also just start reaching out on LinkedIn looking at LinkedIn and looking for other Tech leaders in your same position that are working for different companies that came from different schools than you that look different than you and just saying hey I would be interested in learning about your experience in this position with this company would you be willing to talk with me networking events are a good way to do that looking for open houses like there are different networking uh communities that are bypoc focused or women focused or lgbtqia focused and sometimes they have open houses so even if you are not a member of that Community you can come in and be a part of that networking event as well be cognizant if they are open or or not because they may be attempting to create a safe space and they would want it for people who are only within that Community but there is outrage opportunity there too what other thoughts do you have Jessica thoughts on this because I think this is one that’s tricky so when you look around and you say okay all my friends and colleagues are white you know or all my friends and colleagues are straight or all my whatever it is right and you’re really looking to learn about this it can be tricky because you can come across as performative and so my biggest piece of advice is start doing the anti-racism work um you know on your own um I I’m a part of a Facebook group it’s it’s called moms Against Racism but like I think it’s open to any woman who wants to join and really any sort of space any sort of anti-racism space anti whatever space in the beginning you just want to be listening and observing because the big practice when it comes to this is de-centering yourself and so in those spaces those are sacred spaces where people are doing the work but if you come in too strong too performative it ends up having a bad effect and what I see happen a lot is then because you know you’ve got all sorts of different kinds of people in that group I’m very patient with people I’m I like to take the time to educate people however that’s not our job right just because you know because a lot of this is unpaid labor right and so think about it from that lens of like observing listening you know calling yourself in really paying attention to your biases and if you have a need to respond in those spaces where is that coming from and what are your assumptions you’re making about about certain issues and so start with your own work first don’t burden other people with your work decenter yourself and that de-centering is going to help help you then create authentic relationships with people who are different from you because when you’re de-centering you’re coming from a place of curiosity you’re coming from a place of authenticity you can be really deliberate about how you want to partner with somebody and not fall into the Trap of performative networking or tokenizing people to say hey we need you know a person of color on our team so let’s just recruit this person um no you need to understand and again this goes back to what we’ve said in previous events is really you have to have your own why when it comes to Dei so whether it’s tied to the business whether it’s tied well I would say first it has to start with you it has to start with your own why and then you connect it to the business but you really have to have that reason of wanting to change and understanding where you are now where you want to be and and and really keeping that Center of Mind as you’re on that Journey instead of feeling because we get a lot of feelings like white guilt white shame that leads to really behaviors that are not not conducive to creating the change that we need to see in this space so it’s about being authentic it’s about being I hope Sarah that that answers your question I know that was a really long answer but it’s really being deliberate about those relationships and being and proceeding in an authentic way reminding yourself to decenter yourself and I think just like also focusing in on the intention right and when I want to expand my network why and what am I looking for and what bias have I allowed to enter in that has prevented my network from expanding without the intention and just being aware of what biases and things are happening or things around you that could be contributing to that but yeah and sometimes you won’t be aware of it in the moment I I still do this right right where my bias shows up I’m I’m from a place of ego and or it comes from a place where I think I want to help I’m like I’m a helper so I’ll jump in to help and a lot of women are like this right and so you’re like oh I have a solution to your problem and then and then I will look back on it and I will be like oh my God that was really either performative of me um and I think this goes for like as a business too when you’re posting things on your social Channel like why are you posting it are you posting it because it’s Black History Month are you posting it because it’s International women’s day power it like it’s it’s again it’s not a check in the box exercise if if that’s all you’re doing you know it’s performative if you’re going to the easiest place and I’ve again done this myself I know in Black History Month there was one time I posted a reel of all the black women that have inspired me like Maya Angelou like Tony Robinson like and so to me I’m like I’m celebrating black women this is a positive thing what I wasn’t doing in that moment was taking the opportunity to do my own inner work of understanding where my gaps are and so that is something that I I and I’ll continue to say this I we always want to be one of the good guys and so we’re always aligning ourselves to how we are non-racist the to be actively anti-racist or anti-misogynistic or anti-homophobic we have to actually be looking for the similarities between us and the system of racism misogyny all of those kind of things we have to actually be looking at where are where am I aligned to that because we were all raised in this culture and so we’ve all internalized it so the work never stops it’s always about looking at that and once you start doing that work it’s not going to feel as unnatural making true connections with people who are different from you because now you know you know where your blind spots are you know why what has prevented you from making those relationships to begin with yeah absolutely uh Sarah if you have more questions you’re more than welcome to reach out to us I just want to recap that if you are a hiring manager you are a recruiter you are in the space of having influence over the hiring practices and you know that your company needs some help please feel free to reach out to us we do have that free uh Dei evaluation that we are giving out right now so you can contact us on jobdisruptors.com you join us next week we are bringing back Dr Carrie Anne Peart and we are very excited to talk to her again and so you can look at that event on our site and then we will be releasing our January event soon and so you’ll all be getting invites for those as well if you don’t already follow the job disrupters page on LinkedIn make sure you do so that you can get updates of when we have new events drizzling is there anything that you wanted to close with to make sure that people are walking away with today um just that again remember that we have the blog post there so that you can kind of go through this in your own time do a little self-assessment of you know check all the red flags that apply to you and take an action whether it’s you know setting up that that free call with us to kind of just explore this deeper and have a chat or whether it’s to actually take some actionable steps today it’s just one just start with one like just you just need to start like that is the main thing don’t get overwhelmed by this work just start yeah and then just start and know that you’re not alone in this process you don’t have to do this alone you don’t have to carry this all by yourself there are tons of people who are actively willing and wanting to help us and tons of others so you’re not alone and the work is worth doing so thank you all for joining us today we look forward to seeing you all next week and in future events and I hope you have a lovely day bye everyone bye

     

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